From: John Grigg (starman2100@lycos.com)
Date: Thu Aug 08 2002 - 01:43:49 MDT
I had tuned in an hour late to the Art Bell show(I caught the show in its entirety when they repeated it later), only to hear a familiar sounding voice from the special guest. At first I actually thought "this guy almost sounds like Anders!" But than the host George Noory introduced the guest as Dr. Nick Bostrom!! I nearly fell off my bicycle as I heard this! I actually let out a yell to show my great pleasure.
I had met Nick at Extro-5. He surprised me by being Swedish, and not English! lol Because he studied and taught in England, I thought he originally hailed from there. My mistake!
Anders Sandberg and Nick were intellectual peas in a pod at the conference. They delighted in each other's ideas and conversation. It frustrated them that they did not have more time to discuss... well, everything! lol
I have a fond memory where a high school age female volunteer I had befriended was curious about the many intellectuals running about. I pointed her in their direction..., and off she went! They were both perfect gentlemen and calibrated their conversation so she could understand and take part.
The Art Bell show interview started with George Noory saying there are two very different camps out there in the world. Those who want to encourage technological progress, and those who want to limit and even sometimes just plain stop it.
He gave a very impressive introduction for Nick. But then, Nick Bostrom is a pretty impressive guy! George shared how Nick is a Yale professor and is even a polymath(he used this word), also gifted in the "hard" sciences. Nick shared that he has a love of philosophy, and likes to use it where it can be practically applied. They have had a number of scientific heavyhitters on the show over the last year or two, and I am so glad Nick Bostrom is the latest in that trend.
George asked what transhumanism was. Nick replied it is a "cumbersome term". lol His reply reminded me of a post he wrote awhile back. He felt ultimately it is the philosophy that we can expand human capabilities through technological intervention. Nick pointed out it has only been the last few years that the "transhumanist technologies" have been seeping into the mind of the public via the mass media.
But people have still not fully internalized what all this is going to really mean. And they tend according to Nick to react to this information with a mix of fear and excitement. He said we must take into consideration we may be the first generation to be immortal! Nick told listeners he sees the possibility becoming reality within thirty years. So we need to be taking care of ourselves to make it. The thought occurred to me the Life Extension Foundation of Saul Kent should start advertising now on the show!! lol
Nick explained the World Transhumanist Association was founded in 1998. His reason was due to his belief there was a gap because there needed to be people planning and shaping the future. The WTA champions the cause of getting tech used for good causes. "It is up to us."
This made me wonder if Nick had temporarily forgotten of an organization called The Extropian Institute!! lol! I suppose it helps to have more than just one organization trying to advance things, and the WTA seems to be more of a european and even global organization.
Nick said what is needed is lots of people with varied backgrounds who have vision. George took this as meaning a physicist here, an economist over there, etc. But Nick corrected him and stated he means people of every imaginable profession and background. So George asked if that meant Coast to Coast listeners could join, and Nick said certainly!
Later on Nick did say all sciences interrelate and are important for getting a truly full view of the changes which are coming. I appreciated this, considering how some extropians to an extent look down on certain fields of knowledge.
The host had read over Nick's websites and even read a portion of it over the air! Several times he urged listeners to visit them. : ) This is normally just not done on the show. George really liked the phrase "to navigate the waters ahead." He mentioned it several times.
George wanted to know what prompted Nick's interest in these subjects. Nick explained it was the early realization A.I. could be vastly better at scientific research than humans.
Why so relatively few women are involved in transhumanistic circles was asked. Nick responded that part of it was due to gender roles, and he felt women were by nature more concerned about how technology would affect human interaction and communication. But, he said this was a GOOD thing. I'm not trying to get Dr. Bostrom into trouble here! lol
Of course the grey goo scenario was discussed. The Art Bell hosts always love hearing it described in loving detail! lol I liked how Nick went from saying "nano-assemblers" to "mechanical bacteria" which the public might understand better. He mentioned the many sectors of human endeavor which they would transform.
And how obviously they could be used for good or evil, and why the WTA and other organizations like it are so important. When George asked "do you think evil people will misuse nanotech?" Nick stunned me by replying somewhat snidely(only compared to the rest of his impeccable behavior) "what do you think??" LOL!
Nick went on to give an example of a future tyrannical regime which could last forever due to nanotech because they could detect rebellion in the minds of any citizens long before any harm could be done to the government. A very scary thought which I think could keep George Bush and Dick Cheney up nights!
Nick shot down George's "classic Outer Limits episode idea" of one company at present being by a longshot much farther along than all its competitors in the development of AI or nanotech. He said only as the technology comes fairly close to development in the eyes of everyone, then can one company or especially gov't agency leap forward and take the prize earlier then expected.
AI and super-intelligence in general were major topics on the show. Nick explained once computers become somewhat more bright than humans, it will only be a relatively short time before they vastly outstrip us! But he cautioned it is difficult to say how hard it would be to program them. Nick also brought up the possibility of man/machine interfaces, and how there will probably be a variety of human branches which have taken different paths.
Uploading and virtual worlds were discussed. Nick had to really try hard to convince George Noory that as an upload the world could appear completely real! Nick said he saw uploading here probably in thirty to fifty years. And he explained it could be a method to bring back people cryonically frozen.
George asked Nick a loaded question(considering many in the audience), since he wanted to know if Dr. Bostrom would allow the gov't to put a chip in his head! I did not want to see Nick being seen as "weak" on an issue which scares many religious people, so I cringed as I awaited the answer.
Nick very astutely countered that he would have to weigh the benefits with the risk. And that if you were talking about this for security purposes, you would do just as well by simply using a retina scan.
He went on to say the first chips in brains will be for the disabled, because upgrading normal and healthy brains will be much more difficult. Nick forsees extensive wearables being used by people over the next ten to fifteen years, rather than having chips put in the brain. Nick did an excellent job dealing with a potentially very damaging question.
When George brought up Professor Kevin Warwick, Nick was not to impressed. He said the basic technology being used was on par with a videostore security system! lol It was just surgically put under the skin.
George Noory really loved the idea of "Matrix-style" downloading a skill instantly into one's brain. But Nick was skeptical of this, saying our brain's holographic way of storing knowledge would make this difficult.
I laughed when it came out Nick had never seen an episode of one of my favorite TV shows as a kid, The Six Million Dollar Man, starring actor Lee Majors. At the next extro I will have to find some compatriots who will help me to encircle Dr. Bostrom and make the "do-doo-dooo-doooo" noises which symbolize for me Lee Majors using his bionic limbs to jump great distances or knock over trees. : )
Later George wanted to know if chips in the brain would be vulnerable to computer viruses. Nick informed him that just as our body has an immune system, so would these chips. And he went on to explain our minds have sort of an idea immune system. But I never got to hear Nick say a favorite extropian word "memes!" lol Actually, another guest a few months back went into great detail on memetics. So they were prepared for you, Dr. Bostrom!
Nick felt the time was not right to be focusing on the cloning of humans, and instead we should concentrate on therapeutic methods for alleviating the suffering of those already here. He made a point of saying is was very sad that there is opposition to such a vitally needed technology. And that thousands may die simply because research in the U.S. was banned or even just slowed.
One subject which is a sore spot for some opponents of transhumanism, is environmentalism. A caller in a very heated tone confronted Nick with the declaration that the entire philosophy/movement was based on sacrificing nature for the aggrandizement and immortality of man. Nick made it clear the one way to truly protect the environment was by developing technologies like nano, which would practically eliminate pollution compared to what we do presently.
Overpopulation was also brought up by callers. Nick reminded the audience that our present six billion are only surviving because of our current level of advanced technology to feed once never imagined numbers of people. China was brought up by a caller, who mentioned the mess the people there are in, due to the practice of keeping males and aborting females. Again, Nick pointed out, advances in technology will aid us in effective birth control.
George asked if people would one day live to be as old as two-hundred years. Nick said yes, but science would quickly go well beyond that age limit! When George brought up social security being overburdened by this(he was kidding), Nick said these would be people who were still physically vigorous and would be very contributing members of society, bringing to bear all their worldly wisdom and education to boost the economy.
As I knew someone would do, the question of death being a natural part of the life cycle was brought up. Nick answered that we already greatly interfere with nature's influence on our lives, and we must follow things to their logical conclusion which is to "simply play to win."
On the topic of immortality another caller shared about a scenario where immortals purposely have memories deleted so old experiences will seem like new. Nick felt boredom was something people seemed to be calibrated for at sometimes very different levels. Ultimately, he felt it would not be a big problem.
When asked if he believed in the existence of God, Nick simply replied he was agnostic. This actually surprised me, but in a sense it is the most logical answer for a materialist who realizes they do not YET have all the answers.
Along these lines, Nick had several questions posed to him about whether a soul exists. Nick would simply ask them exactly what a soul was. No one was sure.
A caller asked if nanotech would increase the gulf between the haves & have-nots. Nick simply replied "I hope not." I personally wish he had stated more in the program about how personal wealth will increase for everyone with nanotech. Or maybe he does not fully agree with this view.
A question came up about the idea of humans having a spiritual side(the caller seemed to believe transhumanists don't believe in "spiritual things, but it is an argument of semantics among us), and the evidence being the cooperation we show among each other. He felt without a spiritual side, we would be far more selfish in trying to simply focus on our personal gene propagation. Nick briefly showed there was more to it then this.
Nick Bostrom, the healthy believer in the Western/American way of getting things done economically, came through clearly on the program. lol Nick made it clear the best way to advance science and get things done is to have a capitalistic meritocracy. Not too bad for a fellow from Sweden! : )
Colonizing space was another definite topic. He made the good point(made many times before on the show) that it will be safest for humanity when we are spread out in space. At this point "we have all our eggs in one basket." And as for gaining resources, we need to get out into space where they are in abundance.
Nick was asked about the speed of light. He seemed skeptical about the light barrier being subverted in some way, but said over the next decades and centuries some brilliant minds may find a way around it. He did not mention those minds most likely will belong to machines! lol
A caller wanted to know what our nanomachine probes would do when they came upon intelligent alien races. Nick replied most likely they would be thousands or millions of years more advanced than us. And so we would be at their mercy, not the reverse!
Regarding time travel, Nick said it is still really an unknown, but maybe one day it could be a reality. At that moment I wanted Anders on to give his(I'm sure it would have been MUCH more lengthy) reply! lol
Nick believes there will be no major breakthroughs over the next ten to fifteen years, but over the next twenty to fifty years we will see the appearance of very capable AI and nanotech. He tried to explain to callers these advances would not take centuries as some assume(such as many science fiction writers of the past fifty years!).
Naysayers like Klass and Fukuyama were brought up. Nick said their principal flaw was that they lacked the vision to see the big picture. He is such a polite guy! ; )
George asked what the future would be like 200 hundred years from now. Nick did not claim to really know, but said he was sure there would be vastly greater intelligence available to humanity. Also, lifespans would be much greater.
In conclusion Nick stated it is not human nature to be passive, and not to try changing things for the better. He feels this is the very essence of being human.
He went on to say being able to imagine life at its very best is what drives people forward. Nick mentioned the feelings a person experiences from a great professional success, or with the ecstasy of romantic love. He said these can show us the way to wanting even more in our lives, such as a world without disease, with improved memory power, and much longer lifespans. And so it is with the advancement of science that we can truly enrich our lives to the next level.
George Noory and Nick got along very well. Noory has a real enthusiasm for the topics which were discussed. I got a kick out of George seeming to always first jump in to answer caller questions before Nick got his chance! lol
It was an excellent interview. Nick was guardedly optimistic, not "over the top" by any means. lol! I only wish he had perhaps shown a little more energy and enthusiasm as he spoke. And maybe said more on some of his responses. But that is only my opinion, and I realize english is not his native language(though he speaks it very well!). He was certainly inside a sort of pressure cooker with many millions of opinionated listeners. Ultimately, he came across as very bright, educated, serious, humane, and was a real gentleman to the callers.
Who will be next? lol I would definitely like to see Max and/or Natasha More, Robert Bradbury, Anders Sandberg, Dr. Jerry Lemler(head of Alcor), Robert Ettinger or Damien Broderick on the program.
The Art Bell show audience seems very hungry for this sort of discussion. I guess they are beginning to catch on that science and technology, and those who are proponents of it, can be very exciting!
best wishes,
John
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