From: Camp, Christopher (CCamp@omm.com)
Date: Tue Aug 06 2002 - 13:57:00 MDT
I know I'm jumping in a bit late to this altruism conversation but I thought
I'd throw out a link I'd found. Before the link some background on it...
There has been some talk of how to justify positive social behavior
(tipping, etc... in non-repetitive games/life scenarios) and appeal has been
made to the selfish desire to maintain a set of social norms that
encourage/enforce positive action. I think this is quite probable. A
corollary to this idea is the one developed by JBS Haldane regarding kin
selection. Where a gene-based life form has an interest in social action
that improves the likelihood of survival not just of the individual self but
of the genetic material that marks the species. Dawkins selfish gene
encourages 'altruistic' behavior in individuals because the self has a
larger interest in securing the survival of the species and life in general.
a gedanken experiment where George (an individual human) is given two
options -
1) George dies. Everyone else lives.
2) George lives. Everyone other human dies.
shows that selfless behavior, where self is tightly defined as George only,
may be possible. Given the choice of living alone, without the chance of
reproduction (given current technology), I would choose to allow my family,
friends and the rest of humanity live. My first guess is that many people
would make this same decision.
Haldanes kin selection idea effectively extends the idea of self. Where
self doesn't stop with the skin on your body but can be considered to
include our shared genetic constitution. Very specifically I am unique but
only relatively so - I share a great number of characteristics with my
family, with other humans, and to a lesser extent finches, amoeba, trees and
rocks. To the extent that a family member shares my genetic material they
could be considered a part of myself.
Of course the case of twins and clones makes it clear that even when genetic
material is shared perfectly (or nearly so) it is not the case that the self
is entirely the same - experience makes its mark on the individual too. I
spent a good deal of time thinking about this side of kin selection - a kin
selection not based on genetically shared traits but one based on
memetically shared traits. I searched journals and the internet
intermittently for years before I finally found an article that touches on
the subject specifically. Here is the link (finally)-
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/papers/PapersFH.html#RTFToC22
I think the idea is a powerful one and it may give the conversation on
altruism new clarity. 'Altruistic' actions can be viewed as the individual
seeking to ensure positive conditions for the furtherance of their own
memetic and genetic traits. If anyone knows of further work in this area
I'd appreciate hearing about the sources. Thanks
Chris Camp
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Lorrey [mailto:mlorrey@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:08 AM
To: extropians@extropy.org
Subject: RE: Psych/Philo: Brains want to cooperate
--- Lee Corbin <lcorbin@tsoft.com> wrote:>
> How do you explain Ridley's example of tipping in a
> restaurant
> that you know you'll never visit again, or my
> example of letting
> someone out ahead of you from a crowded parking lot
> when traffic's
> really bad?
THese are examples of rational long term self
interest, because both cited acts contribute to the
net politeness in society, such as flushing a public
toilet, not throwing garbage on the ground, etc. "What
comes around goes around" is the rule here, where your
acts help maintain a polite and courteous treatment by
others not only to yourself, but to other others who
will also treat you well.
If the social more for behavior in public toilets is
kept at a high level, you are far more likely to enjoy
clean and decent public toilets in the future, not
matter whether you actually visit the particular
public toilet you yourself behaved well in in the past.
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