From: Randall Randall (wolfkin@freedomspace.net)
Date: Sat Jul 06 2002 - 13:09:10 MDT
Mike Lorrey wrote:
> Randall Randall wrote:
> Ah, but a novel is not a book, it is a story. Before books were
> invented, novels were memorized and passed on by oral means. There is no
> legal restriction against you memorizing "The Stand" and going around
> reciting it to people. You don't need to pay any money to Stephen King
> or his publisher either UNLESS you use a printed form of his novel as an
> aid, OR record your recital for reproduction and sale. The map is not
> the territory.
I think Lee Daniel Crocker has shown that there is such a legal restriction.
>>Ah, but I'm saying that IP doesn't exist, except in the way that "red"
>>does. Is red something that can be bought, sold, and owned?
>
> Just as Georgists insist that real estate doesn't exist. That doesn't
> make you right.
I don't think Georgists do insist that. I think Georgists just insist
that land cannot be solely owned, since it wasn't created by anyone; I
assume that their arguments are about raw materials in general, but haven't
gotten into it that far with any Georgist.
Answer the question, please: can "red" be bought, sold, and owned?
>>>Like IP, the hotel still has its hotel room, I've just 'reproduced' the
>>>experience for more people. That's fair, ain't it?
>>
>>Ah, but you have violated a specific contract. When I download music from
>>napster, I have signed no contract, and no one has any less than they have
>>had, so I cannot have stolen anything.
>
>
> You received a counterfeited copy from someone who DID agree to a
> contract (signatures are not necessary, verbal contracts are valid in
> cash and barter exchanges), making you an accessory to their crime under
> the interaction where you agreed to accept their counterfeit data.
> Furthermore, knowing as you do that Napster is used specifically for
> purposes of counterfeiting, you don't even need to know specifically
> whether the data you accept is or is not counterfeit if you had a high
> expectation that it would be so.
I"m not sure counterfeit comes into this. Counterfeiting is wrong only
because it is inherently fraud, and only when the purchaser is not getting
what she believes she is getting. Boggs' bills (1) aren't counterfeit, even
though some of them look very like US currency, because the purchaser is
aware that they are not. The US mint is not being harmed in any way, and
shouldn't have any say in whether Boggs can produce them.
>>If the publishers and RIAA had their way, libraries could not legally exist.
>> That is indeed the logical conclusion of your arguments.
>
> But libraries DO exist, and IP law is not what the publishers and RIAA
> would *like* it to be. You are interpreting IP law not according to
> accepted practice. THerefore your entire argument folds.
I don't care about current IP law. I care about the idea of information
as property, and disagree with it. Perhaps I've been unclear that when
I bring up IP law and the RIAA, I'm suggesting that these problems are
the logical result of your more moderate views on copyright and IP.
> If it is printed on an item accepted by completion of a commercial
> transaction, it is a binding contract. This is why deed covenants on
> real estate are so important to be aware of. Most people aren't aware of
> the covenants on their deeds on their homes and other property, and I'll
> bet that at least one or more members of this list have covenants on
> their homes that preclude them from selling their homes to blacks, jews,
> or other minorities. It is irrelevant if such actions are illegal or
> unconstitutional. If you bought the house with a covenant on it like
> that, you have entered into a conspiracy to commit the action which is
> considered illegal.
And if someone said that there were deed covenants on a deed that the
buyer was not allowed to read before purchase, do you believe that they
could be reasonably bound by those?
>>Yes, this is exactly why the most used open source operating system, Linux,
>>is so much worse than the most used proprietary operating system, Windows.
>>
>>Oh, wait.
>
> Yes, show me how Linux is given away on CD for free, is easily installed
> by a computer illiterate, and said illiterate is provided the same level
> of support as commercial operating systems for free.
You can buy support for Linux, just as you have to buy support for MS
products, like Windows. Linux is given away on CD for free at many Linux
User Group meetings, and the people there will usually install Linux on
your machine for free if you bring it, and help you with any further
problems you have. If you want to install it yourself, the newer installs
are often at least as easy as Windows' latest installs, except that they
optionally allow you more control over the installation.
-- Randall Randall <randall@randallsquared.com> Crypto key: randall.freedomspace.net/crypto.text ...what a strange, strange freedom: only free to choose my chains... -- Johnny Clegg
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