From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Thu May 23 2002 - 19:43:14 MDT
Harvey also wrote
> No one said your views aren't welcome here.
> Nobody cares if you want to go form a new groups with
> a new label that does different things than us.
I see.
> I wonder why people seeking to rewrite the principles
> don't think the original authors would notice.
Baseless accusation. It so happens that I agree with the
extropian principles as written. Believe me, if there was
one I disagreed with, you'd hear about it.
> It boggles my mind that people equate openness to new ideas as
> a requirement to accept every radical idea that is proposed.
Another baseless accusation. I don't *require* anyone to accept
any new radical idea. But I criticize ideas based on the content
of those ideas, not because it's in defiance of some written
principles somewhere.
> Proposing that we judge people by race, value people by gender, kill or
> abuse children, assassinate Luddites, reprogram people for their own
> good, initiate force because we're right, govern people against their
> will, and other "final solutions", without addressing the principles
> first is bound to fail. Most people will look at your new proposals
> and point out that they will break everything else we believe in.
*My* new proposals? This is slanderous. I NEVER said anything
about assassinating anyone, valuing people by gender, going for
"final solutions", initiating the use of force, or several other
things on your list.
This is quite scary. Do you think that by repeating accusations
in a whole flurry of emails that people will believe you? I have
written at length, and very recently about freedom and avoiding
the initial use of force. Are you going to apologize for any of
those accusations?
> We don't just follow new ideas because they are new. We evaluate
> new proposals to see if they are effective, dynamic, and extropic.
Oh we don't do *we*? The royal "we" has spoken. Speaking again for
the majority I see. I agree that we *should* be doing so, but sadly
cannot claim that we always do, and I certainly would never dream
of speaking for an entire class of people.
> You seem to get mad when people don't accept your ideas, or keep
> pointing back to the Principles. Aren't they expressing their
> opinions and arguing their viewpoints just as well as you?
This is the only time I've gotten mad in a long time, and it has
nothing to do with people not accepting my ideas. This is another
one of your groundless accusations. What makes me mad is that
some people often, instead of supporting their arguments, appeal
to authority. Worse, they then denounce others NOT just because
they have a diametrically opposed view, but because the others
aren't following the claimed implications of some sacred screed
somewhere. Some people on this list sometimes replace rational
argument and explanation with accusations of deviationism.
> If you want to challenge rational thought, logic, debate, scientific
> method, pan-critical thought, and evidence as methods for discovering
> new "facts", go ahead.
Oh good grief, Harvey. Talk about tarring people who disagree
with you! Who says you have a monopoly on "rational though, logic,
debate", etc., or even that the Extropians do? Only members of
some insane cult would see all people who disagree ideologically
with them as being irrational or illogical. Do you really
think that I---and I could name about six other posters on this
list that you frequently tangle with---are bereft of logic and
rationality? And you certainly *do not* have a monopoly on
the so-called scientific method or pan-critical thought. I am
an extreme proponent of pan-critical rationalism, and so are a
number of my friends who aren't even Extropians.
> If you want to challenge the principles of self-direction, open
> society, rational thinking and other basics, go right ahead.
What on Earth would cause you to accuse me of that??
I feel that I am at quite a disadvantage in this debate because
I refuse to question your devotion to science, logic, rationality,
and critical thought. But nothing stops you, does it?
You are a propagandist.
Lee
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