From: Harvey Newstrom (mail@HarveyNewstrom.com)
Date: Thu May 23 2002 - 12:34:19 MDT
On Thursday, May 23, 2002, at 12:02 pm, Lee Corbin wrote:
> DUH! I WONDER IF ANY OF THE PEOPLE ALWAYS GOING ON
> ABOUT THE PRINCIPLES EVER STOP TO READ THEM!!?? CHRIST!
I wonder why people seeking to rewrite the principles don't think the
original authors would notice.
> Well, it boggles the mind that anyone would attempt to use the
> extropian principles to beat someone over the head with!
It boggles my mind that people equate openness to new ideas as a
requirement to accept every radical idea that is proposed. We don't
just follow new ideas because they are new. We evaluate new proposals
to see if they are effective, dynamic, and extropic. Clearly, ideas
that are not should be discarded.
> Those principles continue to be an extremely fine summary of
> the collective feelings and thoughts of the people who should
> call themselves extropians.
NO THEY DO NOT! I thought you were being sarcastic before. The
Principles are scientific methods for rational thought. They do NOT
represent an opinion poll of the collective "feelings" of extropians.
They are not a mere vote as to how we want to behave. They represent
the best meta-philosophy about how to determine how we should behave.
If you want to challenge rational thought, logic, debate, scientific
method, pan-critical thought, and evidence as methods for discovering
new "facts", go ahead. But until you do, be ready for people to point
out your logical fallacies, scientific flaws, non sequitur thoughts, and
lack of evidence since that is what we are currently expecting with new
ideas.
If you want to challenge the principles of self-direction, open society,
rational thinking and other basics, go right ahead. But until you do,
be prepared to have people question ideas that tend to violate these
basics.
Proposing that we judge people by race, value people by gender, kill or
abuse children, assassinate Luddites, reprogram people for their own
good, initiate force because we're right, govern people against their
will, and other "final solutions", without addressing the principles
first is bound to fail. Most people will look at your new proposals and
point out that they will break everything else we believe in.
You seem to get mad when people don't accept your ideas, or keep
pointing back to the Principles. Aren't they expressing their opinions
and arguing their viewpoints just as well as you? Nobody cares if you
want to go form a new groups with a new label that does different things
than us. But if you want to convert us or claim that our Principles
need to be changed, you need to specifically work toward this goal.
Just proposing new ideas or claiming that they are already Extropian
isn't going to cut it. There are definite scientific procedures and
debating processes that would be required before everybody rewrites
their basic belief systems to match yours.
If you find that too many of your ideas are in direct opposition to the
Extropian Principles, maybe it is time for you to move on to a different
label and stop trying to redefine existing philosophies into yours. If
they are too different, such a redefinition would be futile.
> Herewith is the complete, unedited list from
> http://www.extropy.org/ideas/principles.html
If any of these support racial profiling or killing children or
assassinating Luddites, let me know. I may have missed those.
Otherwise, I am perfectly happy with the current list of Extropian
Principles.
-- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP <www.HarveyNewstrom.com> Principal Security Consultant <www.Newstaff.com>
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