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From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 09:02:18 -0400
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To: John Carvalho <john@synonym.to>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable
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Maintaining the security of the protocol is squarely the responsibility of
the Bitcoin software and the core developers

Continued demand for block space is critical for Bitcoin's security.

Therefore it *is* the responsibility of Bitcoin software and core
developers to maintain a continued demand for block space - which underpins
the game-theoretical security of the protocol.

While I'm personally confident that demand is still high, enough to
reasonably secure the protocol, I do think that this is a matter not best
left up to stern opinions.   Whether covenant tech is essential for that
security or not is a matter for simulations and proofs, not hype and
speculation - on either side of the issue.


On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 8:36 AM John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Core development is not a hackathon project.
>
> None of the quoted following items are features or responsibilities of the
> Bitcoin software, nor Core developers.
>
> Quoted:
> "- Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market.
> - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.
> - Better tooling could be available for application developers.
> - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.
> - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and
> coinjoin.
> - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to
> convince a few people for grants."
>
> Whether you are a child or an attacker, none of us should care, but CTV,
> nor any change to Bitcoin software, will never be justifiable simply
> because you and some of your friends think it is totally cool and might
> make more people like you or give your friends funding.
>
> Please stop making noise about CTV, this is not a place for spamming.
>
> --
> John Carvalho
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM <
> bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 18:39:34 +0000
>> From: alicexbt <alicexbt@protonmail.com>
>> To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
>>         <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <QOWIpROGDv5HHP2GsDiSOsTJ9TVZhFeSP3C03_e2Z3XtOKC_4N5GJtxbdlxuhErvhLZXo1Rn_7SWAQ9XRPwHFuYyArZryTVENefDZuGTAYA=@
>> protonmail.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin
>>
>> Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork. CTV
>> is the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart from
>> the technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things:
>>
>> - Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market.
>> - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.
>> - Better tooling could be available for application developers.
>> - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.
>> - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and
>> coinjoin.
>> - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to
>> convince a few people for grants.
>>
>> **Why covenants are not contentious?**
>>
>> Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread
>> misinformation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media but
>> there are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant
>> proposals in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded
>> approach.
>>
>> All the developers that participated in the discussion are either okay
>> with CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general.
>>
>> **How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?**
>>
>> I don't think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that
>> everyone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in
>> Bitcoin. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and share
>> honest opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits.
>>
>> I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won't mind anything
>> else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in Bitcoin
>> before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to build
>> interesting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters also
>> believe there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes
>> considering each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not a
>> rushed soft fork, less people followed the research and it was not
>> mentioned on social media repeatedly by the respected developers like other
>> soft forks.
>>
>> /dev/fd0
>>
>>
>> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

--000000000000a10a2905e0c7156e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Maintaining the=C2=A0security of the protocol is squa=
rely the responsibility of the Bitcoin=C2=A0software and the core developer=
s<br></div><div><br></div><div>Continued demand for block space is critical=
 for Bitcoin&#39;s security.=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br><br></div><div>Therefore=C2=A0=
it *is* the responsibility of Bitcoin software and core developers to maint=
ain a continued demand for block space - which underpins the game-theoretic=
al security of the protocol.<br></div><div><br>While I&#39;m personally con=
fident that demand is still high, enough to reasonably secure the protocol,=
 I do think that this is a matter not best left up to stern opinions.=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0Whether covenant tech is essential for that security or not is a mat=
ter for simulations and proofs, not hype and speculation - on either side o=
f the issue.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 8:36 AM John Carval=
ho via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.=
org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Core development is not a hackathon project.<br></div><div><br></div><div>=
None of the quoted following items are features=C2=A0or responsibilities=C2=
=A0of the Bitcoin software, nor Core developers.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Quoted:</div><div>&quot;- Developers can build interesting projects wi=
th real demand in market.<br>- Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.<=
br>- Better tooling could be available for application developers.<br>- May=
be we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.<br>- Demand =
for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and coinjoin.<br>=
- Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to co=
nvince a few people for grants.&quot;<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><=
div>Whether you are a child or an attacker, none of us should care, but CTV=
, nor any change to Bitcoin software, will never be justifiable=C2=A0simply=
 because you and some of your friends think it is totally cool and might ma=
ke more people like you or give your friends funding.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Please stop making noise about CTV, this is not a place for spamming.</=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">--</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(34,3=
4,34)"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir=3D"ltr">John=
 Carvalho</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></div></div></div></div><br></div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sa=
t, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.l=
inuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><br>
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 18:39:34 +0000<br>
From: alicexbt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alicexbt@protonmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">alicexbt@protonmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfo=
undation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&g=
t;<br>
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable<br>
Message-ID:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;QOWIpROGDv5HHP2GsDiSOsTJ9TVZhFeSP3C03_e2Z3X=
tOKC_4N5GJtxbdlxuhErvhLZXo1Rn_7SWAQ9XRPwHFuYyArZryTVENefDZuGTAYA=3D@<a href=
=3D"http://protonmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">protonmail.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8<br>
<br>
Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin<br>
<br>
Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork. CTV i=
s the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart from th=
e technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things:<br>
<br>
- Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market.<br>
- Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.<br>
- Better tooling could be available for application developers.<br>
- Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.<br>
- Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and coin=
join.<br>
- Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to co=
nvince a few people for grants.<br>
<br>
**Why covenants are not contentious?**<br>
<br>
Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread misinf=
ormation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media but there=
 are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant proposa=
ls in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded approach.=
<br>
<br>
All the developers that participated in the discussion are either okay with=
 CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general.<br>
<br>
**How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?**<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that eve=
ryone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in Bitco=
in. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and share hones=
t opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits.<br>
<br>
I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won&#39;t mind anythin=
g else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in Bitcoi=
n before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to build i=
nteresting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters also beli=
eve there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes consider=
ing each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not a rushed s=
oft fork, less people followed the research and it was not mentioned on soc=
ial media repeatedly by the respected developers like other soft forks.<br>
<br>
/dev/fd0<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent with Proton Mail secure email.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000a10a2905e0c7156e--