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Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:38:21 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOG=w-vkOzGXosc=C7NwX5_ewaT0Sdrkw49gfO+a9hohYctLaw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org>
To: Chris Pacia <ctpacia@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus based block size retargeting algorithm
(draft)
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It is in their individual interests when the larger block that is allowed
for them grants them more fees.
On Aug 28, 2015 4:35 PM, "Chris Pacia via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> When discussing this with Matt Whitlock earlier we basically concluded th=
e
> block size will never increase under this proposal do to a collective
> action problem. If a miner votes for an increase and nobody else does, th=
e
> blocksize will not increase yet he will still have to pay the difficulty
> penalty.
>
> It may be in everyone's collective interest to raise the block size but
> not their individual interest.
> On Aug 28, 2015 6:24 PM, "Gavin via bitcoin-dev" <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> With this proposal, how much would it cost a miner to include an 'extra'
>> 500-byte transaction if the average block size is 900K and it costs the
>> miner 20BTC in electricity/capital/etc to mine a block?
>>
>> If my understanding of the proposal is correct, it is:
>>
>> 500/900000 * 20 =3D 0.11111 BTC
>>
>> ... Or $2.50 at today's exchange rate.
>>
>> That seems excessive.
>>
>> --
>> Gavin Andresen
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Matt Whitlock via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > This is the best proposal I've seen yet. Allow me to summarize:
>> >
>> > =E2=80=A2 It addresses the problem, in Jeff Garzik's BIP 100, of miner=
s selling
>> their block-size votes.
>> > =E2=80=A2 It addresses the problem, in Gavin Andresen's BIP 101, of bl=
indly
>> trying to predict future market needs versus future technological
>> capacities.
>> > =E2=80=A2 It avoids a large step discontinuity in the block-size limit=
by
>> starting with a 1-MB limit.
>> > =E2=80=A2 It throttles changes to =C2=B110% every 2016 blocks.
>> > =E2=80=A2 It imposes a tangible cost (higher difficulty) on miners who=
vote to
>> raise the block-size limit.
>> > =E2=80=A2 It avoids incentivizing miners to vote to lower the block-si=
ze limit.
>> >
>> > However, this proposal currently fails to answer a very important
>> question:
>> >
>> > =E2=80=A2 What is the mechanism for activation of the new consensus ru=
le? It is
>> when a certain percentage of the blocks mined in a 2016-block retargetin=
g
>> period contain valid block-size votes?
>> >
>> >
>> > https://github.com/btcdrak/bips/blob/bip-cbbsra/bip-cbbrsa.mediawiki
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Friday, 28 August 2015, at 9:28 pm, Btc Drak via bitcoin-dev wrote=
:
>> >> Pull request: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/187
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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<p dir=3D"ltr">It is in their individual interests when the larger block th=
at is allowed for them grants them more fees.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 28, 2015 4:35 PM, "Chris Pacia via b=
itcoin-dev" <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.or=
g">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribut=
ion"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">When discussing this wit=
h Matt Whitlock earlier we basically concluded the block size will never in=
crease under this proposal do to a collective action problem. If a miner vo=
tes for an increase and nobody else does, the blocksize will not increase y=
et he will still have to pay the difficulty penalty.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">It may be in everyone's collective interest to raise the=
block size but not their individual interest.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 28, 2015 6:24 PM, "Gavin via bitcoin=
-dev" <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br type=
=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">With this proposal, how muc=
h would it cost a miner to include an 'extra' 500-byte transaction =
if the average block size is 900K and it costs the miner 20BTC in electrici=
ty/capital/etc to mine a block?<br>
<br>
If my understanding of the proposal is correct, it is:<br>
<br>
500/900000 * 20 =3D 0.11111 BTC<br>
<br>
... Or $2.50 at today's exchange rate.<br>
<br>
That seems excessive.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Gavin Andresen<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Matt Whitlock via bitcoin-dev <<a href=
=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin=
-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> This is the best proposal I've seen yet. Allow me to summarize:<br=
>
><br>
> =E2=80=A2 It addresses the problem, in Jeff Garzik's BIP 100, of m=
iners selling their block-size votes.<br>
> =E2=80=A2 It addresses the problem, in Gavin Andresen's BIP 101, o=
f blindly trying to predict future market needs versus future technological=
capacities.<br>
> =E2=80=A2 It avoids a large step discontinuity in the block-size limit=
by starting with a 1-MB limit.<br>
> =E2=80=A2 It throttles changes to =C2=B110% every 2016 blocks.<br>
> =E2=80=A2 It imposes a tangible cost (higher difficulty) on miners who=
vote to raise the block-size limit.<br>
> =E2=80=A2 It avoids incentivizing miners to vote to lower the block-si=
ze limit.<br>
><br>
> However, this proposal currently fails to answer a very important ques=
tion:<br>
><br>
> =E2=80=A2 What is the mechanism for activation of the new consensus ru=
le? It is when a certain percentage of the blocks mined in a 2016-block ret=
argeting period contain valid block-size votes?<br>
><br>
><br>
> <a href=3D"https://github.com/btcdrak/bips/blob/bip-cbbsra/bip-cbbrsa.=
mediawiki" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/btcdrak/=
bips/blob/bip-cbbsra/bip-cbbrsa.mediawiki</a><br>
><br>
><br>
>> On Friday, 28 August 2015, at 9:28 pm, Btc Drak via bitcoin-dev wr=
ote:<br>
>> Pull request: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/187"=
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/=
187</a><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-=
dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>
--001a113fde8842befe051e679438--
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