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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Censorship Resistant Transaction Relay - Taking out
 the garbage(man)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 08:50:34 +0200
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> Op 3 jun 2025, om 04:52 heeft Chris Guida <chrisguida@gmail.com> het volg=
ende geschreven:

> Also, please let me know if this list is not the proper venue for this di=
scussion. It gets kind of philosophical.

More importantly it doesn't contain any numerical analysis as to its effect=
iveness.

> Spam filtration, conversely, is a rate-limiting of transactions based on =
objective criteria,

Presence on the OFAC list is an objective criterion. Your distinction betwe=
en "objective" and "subjective" seems rather arbitrary. In any case it's no=
t relevant for the purpose of censorship resistance.

The reality is that there are different groups using Bitcoin and they have =
different opinions on which transactions it should include.

Governments are one such group and they could decide tomorrow to spin up a =
bigger version Garbageman and disrupt the entire mempool. If they perceive =
it as an attack on their interest. As a result everyone has to submit trans=
actions directly to a handful of, often US based, pools.

If we're going down the route of openly innovating attacks against the memp=
ool, we should also continue innovating countermeasures, as Peter Todd did.

> Garbageman restores the balance.


This is extremely vague and avoids the question of effectiveness.

What percentage of attempted "spam" transactions are prevented from enterin=
g a block? What's the average delay in seconds?

You speak of "rate limiting", but delaying propagation doesn't rate limit a=
nything. Unless you completely block some percentage of transactions, the s=
ame amount of spam ends up in blocks, just a little bit later. The rate, e.=
g. gigabytes per months, stays the same.

Peter's original email also doesn't answer this: presumably because he's tr=
ying to be generous:

> For a sybil attack to succeed against a non-listing node, every one of th=
e N
> outgoing connections must be either a sybil attacking node, or a listenin=
g node
> that itself has been defeated by sybil attack.=20

"succeed" here just means the transaction doesn't reach a miner in the init=
ial broadcast attempt.
=20
If the "spammers" use extremely naive software, perhaps they never try agai=
n and the sybil attack was successful. But this assumes an adversary who do=
esn't adapt, which is not a reasonable assumption.

Anyone would understand from their own experience if that if a transaction =
doesn't go through, you try again. You don't just accept that you've been r=
ate limited.

The simplest next move would be for their software to just connect to more =
Libre relay peers and broadcast the transaction again.

Or people can just spin up more Libre Relay nodes. Both miners and issuers =
of various scam tokens have a monetary incentive to do that. Whereas propon=
ents of filters are (so far) not willing to invest serious money. E.g. when=
 I challenged Luke Dashjr in an earlier post to reorg a single block with s=
pam, he didn't respond [1]. Worse, Ocean proactively offers "Core" [0] temp=
lates. Although running a node is cheap, if this becomes an arms race, the =
side that actually spends money has the advantage.

But let's say, after all this you find a way to make Garbageman effective, =
that it actually causes and sustains an economically meaningful delay betwe=
en when a transaction is submitted to Libre Relay network and when its incl=
uded in a block. Then all you've achieved is an incentive to submit directl=
y to miners, making those miners more profitable. Congrats, you didn't fix =
spam, you didn't rate limit anything and you made mining more centralised.

- Sjors

[0] https://ocean.xyz/docs/templateselection
[1] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f348e4bf-ccc4-48e3-9745-ac72b1b131f5@a=
pp.fastmail.com/

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-=
mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div>Op 3 jun 2025, om 04:52 heeft Chris Guida &lt;chrisguida@gmail.co=
m&gt; het volgende geschreven:</div></blockquote><div><br></div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite">Also, please let me know if this list is not the proper venu=
e for this discussion. It gets kind of philosophical.</blockquote><div><br>=
</div>More importantly it doesn't contain any numerical analysis as to its =
effectiveness.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">Spam filt=
ration, conversely, is a rate-limiting of transactions based on objective c=
riteria,</blockquote><br></div><div>Presence on the OFAC list is an objecti=
ve criterion. Your distinction between "objective" and "subjective" seems r=
ather arbitrary. In any case it's not relevant for the purpose of censorshi=
p resistance.</div><div><br></div><div>The reality is that there are differ=
ent groups using Bitcoin and they have different opinions on which transact=
ions it should include.</div><div><br></div><div>Governments are one such g=
roup and they could decide tomorrow to spin up a bigger version Garbageman =
and disrupt the entire mempool. If they perceive it as an attack on their i=
nterest. As a result everyone has to submit transactions directly to a hand=
ful of, often US based, pools.</div><div><br></div><div>If we're going down=
 the route of openly innovating attacks against the mempool, we should also=
 continue innovating countermeasures, as Peter Todd did.</div><div><br></di=
v><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0,=
 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-vari=
ant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: sta=
rt; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spaci=
ng: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none=
; display: inline !important;">Garbageman restores the balance.</span></div=
></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>This is extremely vague and avoids =
the question of effectiveness.</div><br><div>What percentage of attempted "=
spam" transactions are prevented from entering a block? What's the average =
delay in seconds?</div><div><br></div><div>You speak of "rate limiting", bu=
t delaying propagation doesn't rate limit anything. Unless you completely b=
lock some percentage of transactions, the same amount of spam ends up in bl=
ocks, just a little bit later. The rate, e.g. gigabytes per months, stays t=
he same.</div><div><br></div><div>Peter's original email also doesn't answe=
r this: presumably because he's trying to be generous:</div><div><br></div>=
<div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>For a sybil attack to succeed aga=
inst a non-listing node, every one of the N<br>outgoing connections must be=
 either a sybil attacking node, or a listening node<br>that itself has been=
 defeated by sybil attack.&nbsp;</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>"suc=
ceed" here just means the transaction doesn't reach a miner in the initial =
broadcast attempt.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If the "spammers" use extreme=
ly naive software, perhaps they never try again and the sybil attack was su=
ccessful. But this assumes an adversary who doesn't adapt, which is not a r=
easonable assumption.</div><div><br></div><div>Anyone would understand from=
 their own experience if that if a transaction doesn't go through, you try =
again. You don't just accept that you've been rate limited.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>The simplest next move would be for their software to just connec=
t to more Libre relay peers and broadcast the transaction again.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Or people can just spin up more Libre Relay nodes. Both mine=
rs and issuers of various scam tokens have a monetary incentive to do that.=
 Whereas proponents of filters are (so far) not willing to invest serious m=
oney. E.g. when I challenged Luke Dashjr in an earlier post to reorg a sing=
le block with spam, he didn't respond [1]. Worse, Ocean proactively offers =
"Core" [0] templates. Although running a node is cheap, if this becomes an =
arms race, the side that actually spends money has the advantage.</div><div=
><br></div><div>But let's say, after all this you find a way to make Garbag=
eman effective, that it actually causes and sustains an economically meanin=
gful delay between when a transaction is submitted to Libre Relay network a=
nd when its included in a block. Then all you've achieved is an incentive t=
o submit directly to miners, making those miners more profitable. Congrats,=
 you didn't fix spam, you didn't rate limit anything and you made mining mo=
re centralised.</div><div><br></div><div>- Sjors</div><div><br></div><div>[=
0]&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://ocean.xyz/docs/templateselection">https://ocean.=
xyz/docs/templateselection</a></div><div>[1]&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://gnusha=
.org/pi/bitcoindev/f348e4bf-ccc4-48e3-9745-ac72b1b131f5@app.fastmail.com/">=
https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f348e4bf-ccc4-48e3-9745-ac72b1b131f5@app.f=
astmail.com/</a></div><div><br></div></body></html>

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