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From: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 23:21:16 +0100
Message-ID: <CAFvNmHSH4aPvP88wJHg4uwSmRZS7iJxVaOYhamz5L4yPx7GsYg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Adding New BIP Editors
To: Ava Chow <lists@achow101.com>
Cc: Steve Lee <steven.j.lee@gmail.com>, bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
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Ava

> Obviously a revert war would be a problem, but I don't think it would
come down to that, and in that case, participants in that should be
promptly removed.

It is inevitable there will be a "revert war" unless they all have to
agree on merge decisions or communicate prior to merging. It is just a
matter of time. Does for example Ordinal Numbers get a BIP number? I
suspect all the new BIP editors won't agree on that.

Who is to blame in a "revert war" if each editor is free to merge
whatever pull request they like? The editor who merged it? Why should
they be removed as an editor for merging a pull request when they find
out later a different editor disagreed with that merge decision and
wants to revert the merge?

I'm even more concerned about future soft fork activation attempts.
These don't necessarily need to be attempted via a Bitcoin Core merged
pull request hence the BIPs repo could be a key source of information
and guidance on this.

> BIPs is also a fairly low risk repo as it's just documentation.

Lower risk than say the Bitcoin Core repo sure but just throwing a
large number of new editors at it makes it seem like you don't care
what happens there.

I've seen Wladimir is contributing again to Core. Is there a plan to
give him commit access again? I'd be more comfortable with him
overseeing things in the various repos under the Bitcoin Core
(/bitcoin) GitHub org as it sounds like you don't really care if the
BIPs repo degenerates into a free for all.

Thanks
Michael

On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 10:15=E2=80=AFPM 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Development
Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> On 04/20/2024 04:46 PM, Steve Lee wrote:
> > Wasn't there evidence provided that Kanzure does not want this
> > responsibility without being paid?
>
> I am not aware of that, and it hasn't come up when I've talked to him
> about being a BIPs editor.
>
> > I'm confused by this process that we don't even ask the people if they
> > want the responsibility? I think only Laolu has chimed in to commit to =
it?
>
> Personally, I've spoken to all 5 privately and they've all confirmed to
> me that they are willing to be BIPs editors. Jonatack[1] and Murch[2]
> have also replied to this thread about this.
>
> Ava
>
> [1]:
> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/83b69000-ca1e-4a58-90b5-114cb09ac0bbn@go=
oglegroups.com/
> [2]:
> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a-920b-32bd88d5e778@mur=
ch.one/
>
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 12:30=E2=80=AFPM 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Develop=
ment
> > Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     Since we're now past the deadline of April 19th, I'd like to inform
> >     everyone of what will happen on Monday.
> >
> >     There has not been any actual objections to the nominees nor have t=
here
> >     been any suggestions on choosing a subset of them since my last ema=
il.
> >     As such, there is rough consensus on adding Kanzure, Murch, Jonatac=
k,
> >     Ruben, and Roasbeef as BIP editors, and they will be added on Monda=
y
> >     April 22nd.
> >
> >     Ava
> >
> >     On 04/16/2024 01:08 PM, 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Development Mailing =
List
> >     wrote:
> >      > While I don't disagree that 5 or 6 people seems like a lot to ad=
d at
> >      > once, it's not clear to me how we should decide which subset of =
the
> >      > nominees should be added. As it is now, I have only seen an actu=
al
> >      > objection to Kanzure and Ruben from /dev/fd0, and no explicit
> >     objections
> >      > to anyone else. It seems like the vast majority of people don't =
share
> >      > their concerns either as both Kanzure and Ruben continue to be
> >     endorsed
> >      > by many others.
> >      >
> >      > Looking at the endorsements each candidate has received, the cur=
rent
> >      > counts are:
> >      > * Kanzure - 17 for, 1 against
> >      > * Murch - 13 for
> >      > * Jonatack - 13 for
> >      > * Ruben - 12 for, 1 against
> >      > * Roasbeef - 9 for
> >      > * Michael Folkson - none
> >      >
> >      > However, I don't want this process to become a popularity contes=
t and
> >      > require some kind of formal voting. Rather I'd prefer that this
> >     process
> >      > be something more like how Bitcoin Core maintainers are added - =
by
> >      > achieving rough consensus. Without any explicit objections to an=
y of
> >      > these candidates, I'm inclined to move forward with adding the 5=
 who
> >      > have received endorsements. Having to pick "winners" from this l=
ist
> >      > seems like a quick way to stir up drama that I don't think anyon=
e
> >     really
> >      > wants to deal with.
> >      >
> >      > I do want to note that neither Kanzure, Ruben, nor Roasbeef have
> >     posted
> >      > on this list that they are willing to be BIP editors. I have
> >     reached out
> >      > to all 3 of them privately, and received responses from Kanzure =
and
> >      > Ruben that indicate that they probably are willing, but public
> >      > confirmation from them on this list would also be nice. I have n=
ot
> >      > received a response from Roasbeef.
> >      >
> >      > Ava
> >      >
> >      > On 04/11/2024 10:22 AM, Sergi Delgado Segura wrote:
> >      >>   > I would prefer having more (9+?) than less folks on this
> >     task, so
> >      >> personal preferences are easily ignored and overwritten by the =
group
> >      >> majority.
> >      >>
> >      >> I disagree with that, the more doesn't really the better here.
> >     Having
> >      >> too many editors may result in a tragedy of the commons, in
> >     which people
> >      >> just commit to the job because many others do, and they do not
> >     end up
> >      >> doing as much because they expect others to do the it. This doe=
s not
> >      >> only make the process look bad but may burnout the ones that en=
d up
> >      >> doing the job, given their time commitment ends up being too fa=
r
> >     from
> >      >> their expectations.
> >      >>
> >      >> I think being more moderate with the amount of people is better=
, and
> >      >> gives us leeway in case the workload ends up being excessive an=
d
> >     we need
> >      >> to add more people (plus discourage people from joining and
> >     slacking off).
> >      >>
> >      >> I think 3 more people should be a good number to start from.
> >      >> I'd personally vouch for Murch, Kanzure, and Ruben based on
> >     their track
> >      >> record in the space
> >      >>
> >      >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 4:30=E2=80=AFPM nvk <rdlfnvk@gmail.com
> >     <mailto:rdlfnvk@gmail.com>
> >      >> <mailto:rdlfnvk@gmail.com <mailto:rdlfnvk@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >      >>
> >      >> +1 for
> >      >> Kanzure
> >      >> RubenSomsen
> >      >> Seccour
> >      >> Jon Atack
> >      >> Roasbeef
> >      >>
> >      >> I would prefer having more (9+?) than less folks on this task, =
so
> >      >> personal preferences are easily ignored and overwritten by the =
group
> >      >> majority.
> >      >>
> >      >> BIPs were intended as a means to collect ideas, not enforce ide=
as.
> >      >>
> >      >> I'd like to return to that.
> >      >>
> >      >> - NVK (temp gmail account)
> >      >>
> >      >>      On Monday, April 1, 2024 at 5:16:54=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 David=
 A.
> >     Harding wrote:
> >      >>
> >      >>          On 2024-03-28 10:04, Matt Corallo wrote:
> >      >>           > Please provide justification rather than simply
> >     saying "I
> >      >>          like Bob!".
> >      >>
> >      >>          Using only comments from the mailing list, the
> >     following appears
> >      >>          to be
> >      >>          the candidate list along with the current support.
> >     Asterisks denote
> >      >>          candidates who indicated their willingness to accept
> >     the role.
> >      >>
> >      >>          - Bryan "Kanzure" Bishop, recommended by Ava Chow[1], =
Chris
> >      >>          Stewart[3],
> >      >>          Michael Folkson[6], Peter Todd[9], Matt Corallo[10],
> >     Brandon
> >      >>          Black[11],
> >      >>          Antoine Riard[12], Murch[13], Antoine Poinsot[15], Joh=
n
> >      >>          Carvalho[16]
> >      >>
> >      >>          - Ruben Somsen, recommended by Ava Chow[1], Chris
> >     Stewart[3],
> >      >>          Michael
> >      >>          Folkson[6], Antoine Riard[12], Murch[13], Antoine
> >     Poinsot[15], John
> >      >>          Carvalho[16]
> >      >>
> >      >>          - Jon Atack*, recommended by Luke Dashjr[2], Chris
> >     Stewart[3],
> >      >>          /dev/fd0[5][7],
> >      >>          Brandon Black[11], Antoine Riard[12], Ava Chow[14], Jo=
hn
> >      >>          Carvalho[16]
> >      >>
> >      >>          - Olaoluwa "Roasbeef" Osuntokun, recommended by Chris
> >      >>          Stewart[3], John
> >      >>          C. Vernaleo[4], /dev/fd0[5][7], Keagan McClelland[8],
> >     Antoine
> >      >>          Riard[12], Ava Chow[14]
> >      >>
> >      >>          - Mark "Murch" Erhardt*, recommended by Michael
> >     Folkson[6], Keagan
> >      >>          McClelland[8], Matt Corallo[10], Brandon Black[11], An=
toine
> >      >>          Riard[12],
> >      >>          Ava Chow[14]
> >      >>
> >      >>          - Michael Folkson*
> >      >>
> >      >>          Note: Luke Dashjr proposed[17] Seccour and Greg Tonosk=
i for
> >      >>          "non-dev
> >      >>          triaging", Tonoski proposed himself[18] for "BIP
> >     editor", and
> >      >>          Antoine
> >      >>          Riard[12] proposed Seccour for "decentralized PM".
> >      >>
> >      >>          I searched the BIPs repo by commenter to see if any of
> >     the above
> >      >>          candidates had been especially active there, which is
> >     listed
> >      >>          below as:
> >      >>          total PRs they commented on (number still open/number
> >     closed).
> >      >>
> >      >>          - 21 (1/20) commenter:kanzure
> >      >>          - 3 (2/1) commenter:rubensomsen
> >      >>          - 15 (0/15) commenter:jonatack
> >      >>          - 18 (2/16) commenter:roasbeef
> >      >>          - 10 (6/4) commenter:Murchandamus
> >      >>          - 57 (6/51) commenter:michaelfolkson
> >      >>
> >      >>          I'll also note that Osuntokun is the only member of th=
e
> >     set to
> >      >>          have a
> >      >>          merged BIP that they co-authored, although I believe
> >     there are
> >      >>          far-along
> >      >>          draft BIPs for both Murch (terminology) and Somsen (Si=
lent
> >      >>          Payments). I
> >      >>          don't think this should be a requirement, but I do thi=
nk it
> >      >>          demonstrates
> >      >>          familiarity with the process.
> >      >>
> >      >>          Speaking only for myself, I think all of the candidate=
s
> >     above with
> >      >>          multiple recommendations from other community
> >     participants are
> >      >>          fully
> >      >>          qualified for the role, so I'll only provide a detaile=
d
> >      >>          justification
> >      >>          for the person who would be my first pick: Murch is no=
t
> >     only a
> >      >>          longstanding and broadly liked Bitcoin contributor, bu=
t
> >     (as Corallo
> >      >>          mentioned) he has worked on standardizing terminology
> >     through a
> >      >>          draft
> >      >>          BIP. In addition, he provided an extremely detailed
> >     review of
> >      >>          all 300
> >      >>          pages of a draft of Mastering Bitcoin (3rd edition) an=
d has
> >      >>          reviewed
> >      >>          drafts of over 200 weekly Optech newsletters, in both =
cases
> >      >>          significantly improving the accuracy and
> >     comprehensibility of the
> >      >>          documentation. To me, that seems very similar to the
> >     work we'd
> >      >>          ask him
> >      >>          to perform as a BIPs editor and it's something that
> >     he's already
> >      >>          doing,
> >      >>          so I think there's an excellent fit of person to role.
> >      >>
> >      >>          -Dave
> >      >>
> >      >>          [1]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8...@achow101.com=
/
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8...@achow101.co=
m/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8-ba1a-c9d97927551e@=
achow101.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8-ba1a-c9d=
97927551e@achow101.com/>>
> >      >>          [2]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106...@dashjr.org/
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106...@dashjr.org/=
>
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106-b843-c1ff8f8a6=
2a3@dashjr.org/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106-b843-c=
1ff8f8a62a3@dashjr.org/>>
> >      >>          [3]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a...@googlegroups=
.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a...@googlegroups.=
com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a-8fd6-cddc46f129a=
2n@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a-8=
fd6-cddc46f129a2n@googlegroups.com/>>
> >      >>          [4]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333...@netpurgatory=
.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333...@netpurgatory.=
com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333-fd28-bdd55899b71=
3@netpurgatory.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333-fd=
28-bdd55899b713@netpurgatory.com/>>
> >      >>          [5]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36...@googlegroups=
.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36...@googlegroups.=
com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36-be81-7c3719157fa=
bn@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36-b=
e81-7c3719157fabn@googlegroups.com/>>
> >      >>          [6]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2...@googlegroups=
.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2...@googlegroups.=
com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2-a787-639a3564d00=
6n@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2-a=
787-639a3564d006n@googlegroups.com/>>
> >      >>          [7]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869...@googlegroups=
.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869...@googlegroups.=
com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869-a3b1-55d346efbea=
1n@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869-a=
3b1-55d346efbea1n@googlegroups.com/>>
> >      >>          [8]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALeFGL1-LKPWd7YRS110ut8tX=3Dwruqg=
LEazRA5...@mail.gmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALeFGL1-LKPWd=
7YRS110ut8tX=3DwruqgLEazRA5...@mail.gmail.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitc=
oindev/CALeFGL1-LKPWd7YRS110ut8tX=3DwruqgLEazRA5nVw9siYCPj4A@mail.gmail.com=
/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALeFGL1-LKPWd7YRS110ut8tX=3DwruqgLEazR=
A5nVw9siYCPj4A@mail.gmail.com/>>
> >      >>          [9]
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbf...@petertodd.org/
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbf...@petertodd.org/>
> >      >>
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbfrr4wZG7k@petertodd.org/
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbfrr4wZG7k@petertodd.org/>>
> >      >>          [10]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5...@mattcorallo.=
com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5...@mattcorallo.co=
m/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5-86e2-7ba0336a9bf2@=
mattcorallo.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5-86e2-=
7ba0336a9bf2@mattcorallo.com/>>
> >      >>          [11]
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/>
> >      >>
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/>>
> >      >>          [12]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+E...@mail.=
gmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+E...@m=
ail.gmail.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+E=
KMCP5oEbHSKSXpq0VKVBhJLhrw@mail.gmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoinde=
v/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+EKMCP5oEbHSKSXpq0VKVBhJLhrw@mail.gmail.com/>>
> >      >>          [13]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a...@murch.one/
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a...@murch.one/>
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a-920b-32bd88d5e=
778@murch.one/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a-920b-32=
bd88d5e778@murch.one/>>
> >      >>          [14]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f...@achow101.com=
/
> >     <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f...@achow101.co=
m/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f-866d-c555b80b0644@=
achow101.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f-866d-c55=
5b80b0644@achow101.com/>>
> >      >>          [15]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ppBS1tfMU3SFX85kmIBVBd0WpT5Wof_oSB=
Xsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK-UZWawf8IDApPqF7bXOH4gwU1c2jS4xojo=
=3D@protonmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ppBS1tfMU3SFX85kmIBVB=
d0WpT5Wof_oSBXsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK-UZWawf8IDApPqF7bXOH4gw=
U1c2jS4xojo=3D@protonmail.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ppBS1tfMU=
3SFX85kmIBVBd0WpT5Wof_oSBXsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK-UZWawf8IDA=
pPqF7bXOH4gwU1c2jS4xojo=3D@protonmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoinde=
v/ppBS1tfMU3SFX85kmIBVBd0WpT5Wof_oSBXsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK=
-UZWawf8IDApPqF7bXOH4gwU1c2jS4xojo=3D@protonmail.com/>>
> >      >>          [16]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552...@googlegroups=
.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552...@googlegroups.=
com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552-88ca-11b9ed34066=
1n@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552-8=
8ca-11b9ed340661n@googlegroups.com/>>
> >      >>          [17]
> >      >>
> >     https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAMHHROw9mZJRnTbUo76PdqwJU=3D=3DYJ=
Mvd9Qrst+...@mail.gmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAMHHROw9mZJ=
RnTbUo76PdqwJU=3D=3DYJMvd9Qrst+...@mail.gmail.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/=
bitcoindev/CAMHHROw9mZJRnTbUo76PdqwJU=3D=3DYJMvd9Qrst+nmyypaedYZgg@mail.gma=
il.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAMHHROw9mZJRnTbUo76PdqwJU=3D=3DY=
JMvd9Qrst+nmyypaedYZgg@mail.gmail.com/>>
> >      >>
> >      >>      --
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> >      >>
> >      >>
> >      >>
> >      >> --
> >      >> Sergi.
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Michael Folkson
Personal email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com

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