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From: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>
To: DA Williamson <damian@willtech.com.au>, ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
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Good afternoon,

That is not desirable since yourself and I cannot prove the property of the=
 UTXO when it is further spent unless we can ourselves scrutinize it.

We have had this conversation before where you approach your reply to resol=
ve that I have offered disagreement and I try to explain I am not disagreei=
ng and yet there should be found some common ground. Can this improve?

KING JAMES HRMH
Great British Empire

Regards,
The Australian
LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
MR. Damian A. James Williamson
Wills

et al.


Willtech
www.willtech.com.au
www.go-overt.com
and other projects

earn.com/willtech
linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson


m. 0487135719
f. +61261470192


This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this emai=
l if misdelivered.
________________________________
From: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 March 2021 3:11 PM
To: DA Williamson <damian@willtech.com.au>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; LO=
RD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK

Good morning JAMES,

> Good Afternoon,
>
> Verifiable and independantly verifiable are not the same. Independantly
> scrutinable means any public can scrutinise blockchain to determine it
> is honest. It does not rely on involved parties but insistently on the
> data published in the blockchain.

The involved parties ultimately publish the data on the blockchain, and the=
 result is independently validatable.
All that each involved party has to do is validate for itself that it does =
not lose any funds, and, by the operation of math, the summary result does =
not result in any loss (or creation) of funds, thus CoinJoin cannot lead to=
 fraud.

I do not see much of a point in your objection here.
For example, in the case of Lightning, the individual payments made by the =
participants in the channel cannot be verified by anyone else (they can lie=
 about the payments that occurred on their channel).
But both participants in the channel need to agree on a single result, and =
it is that summary result that is independently verified onchain and publis=
hed.

Indeed, one major technique for privacy improvement in Bitcoin is the simpl=
e technique of creating summaries of multiple actions without revealing det=
ails.
Such a general class of techniques works by reducing the data pushed onchai=
n which provides both (a) scale because less data on chain and (b) privacy =
because less data is analyzable onchain.

Basically ---

1.  The entire point of a public blockchain is to prevent uncontrolled forg=
ery of the coin.
    Only particular rules allow construction of new coins (in Bitcoin, the =
mining subsidy).
2.  Various techniques can be used to support the above central point.
    * The simplest is to openly publish every amount value in cleartext.
      * However, this is not necessarily the ***only*** acceptable way to a=
chieve the goal!
      * Remember, the point is to prevent uncontrolled forgery.
        The point is **not** mass surveillance.
    * Another method would be to openly publish **summaries** of transactio=
ns, such as by Lightning Network summarizing the result of multiple payment=
s.
      * CoinJoin is really just a way to summarize multiple self-payments.
    * Another method would be to use homomorphisms between a cleartext and =
a ciphertext, and publish only the ciphertext (which can be independently v=
erified as correctly being added together and that inputs equal outputs plu=
s fees).

No privacy technique worth discussing and development in Bitcoin gets aroun=
d the above point, and thus fraud cannot be achieved with those (at least i=
f we define fraud simply as "those who control the keys control the coins" =
--- someone stealing a copy of your privkeys is beyond this definition of f=
raud).
Any privacy improvement Taproot buys (mostly in LN, but also some additiona=
l privacy for CoinSwap) will still not allow fraud.

Regards,
ZmnSCPxj

--_000_PS2P216MB09140E189C0873B4232F54359D6A9PS2P216MB0914KORP_
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Good afternoon,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
That is not desirable since yourself and I cannot prove the property of the=
 UTXO when it is further spent unless we can ourselves scrutinize it.<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
We have had this conversation before where you approach your reply to resol=
ve that I have offered disagreement and I try to explain I am not disagreei=
ng and yet there should be found some common ground. Can this improve?</div=
>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"Signature">
<div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div>KING JAMES HRMH</div>
<div>Great British Empire</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,
<div>The Australian</div>
<div>LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (&amp; HMRH)</div>
<div>of Hougun Manor &amp; Glencoe &amp; British Empire</div>
<div>MR. Damian A. James Williamson</div>
<div>Wills</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>et al.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Willtech</div>
<div>www.willtech.com.au</div>
<div>www.go-overt.com</div>
<div>and other projects</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>earn.com/willtech</div>
<div>linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>m. 0487135719</div>
<div>f. +61261470192</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">This email does not constitute a general a=
dvice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.</span><br>
</div>
<div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> ZmnSCPxj &lt;ZmnSCP=
xj@protonmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 17 March 2021 3:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> DA Williamson &lt;damian@willtech.com.au&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bitcoin Protocol Discussion &lt;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundatio=
n.org&gt;; LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH &lt;willtech@live.com.au&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"=
>
<div class=3D"PlainText">Good morning JAMES,<br>
<br>
&gt; Good Afternoon,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Verifiable and independantly verifiable are not the same. Independantl=
y<br>
&gt; scrutinable means any public can scrutinise blockchain to determine it=
<br>
&gt; is honest. It does not rely on involved parties but insistently on the=
<br>
&gt; data published in the blockchain.<br>
<br>
The involved parties ultimately publish the data on the blockchain, and the=
 result is independently validatable.<br>
All that each involved party has to do is validate for itself that it does =
not lose any funds, and, by the operation of math, the summary result does =
not result in any loss (or creation) of funds, thus CoinJoin cannot lead to=
 fraud.<br>
<br>
I do not see much of a point in your objection here.<br>
For example, in the case of Lightning, the individual payments made by the =
participants in the channel cannot be verified by anyone else (they can lie=
 about the payments that occurred on their channel).<br>
But both participants in the channel need to agree on a single result, and =
it is that summary result that is independently verified onchain and publis=
hed.<br>
<br>
Indeed, one major technique for privacy improvement in Bitcoin is the simpl=
e technique of creating summaries of multiple actions without revealing det=
ails.<br>
Such a general class of techniques works by reducing the data pushed onchai=
n which provides both (a) scale because less data on chain and (b) privacy =
because less data is analyzable onchain.<br>
<br>
Basically ---<br>
<br>
1.&nbsp; The entire point of a public blockchain is to prevent uncontrolled=
 forgery of the coin.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Only particular rules allow construction of new coins (i=
n Bitcoin, the mining subsidy).<br>
2.&nbsp; Various techniques can be used to support the above central point.=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * The simplest is to openly publish every amount value i=
n cleartext.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * However, this is not necessarily the ***on=
ly*** acceptable way to achieve the goal!<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Remember, the point is to prevent uncontro=
lled forgery.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The point is **not** mass survei=
llance.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Another method would be to openly publish **summaries*=
* of transactions, such as by Lightning Network summarizing the result of m=
ultiple payments.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * CoinJoin is really just a way to summarize=
 multiple self-payments.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Another method would be to use homomorphisms between a=
 cleartext and a ciphertext, and publish only the ciphertext (which can be =
independently verified as correctly being added together and that inputs eq=
ual outputs plus fees).<br>
<br>
No privacy technique worth discussing and development in Bitcoin gets aroun=
d the above point, and thus fraud cannot be achieved with those (at least i=
f we define fraud simply as &quot;those who control the keys control the co=
ins&quot; --- someone stealing a copy of your
 privkeys is beyond this definition of fraud).<br>
Any privacy improvement Taproot buys (mostly in LN, but also some additiona=
l privacy for CoinSwap) will still not allow fraud.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
ZmnSCPxj<br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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