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From: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Gavin's post-0.9 TODO list...
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That change was made in response to user complaints. Heck we get complaints
about battery life and bandwidth impact even with Bloom filtering. We can't
just randomly start using peoples bandwidth for relaying blocks, especially
as I guess most SPV nodes are behind NAT.
If Gavin is right and the future is dominated by mobiles and tablets, then
it will require a change of thinking in how P2P networks work. I think
there are plenty of people with private servers who would be willing to run
nodes though. I'm not too worried about this.
On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Warren Togami Jr. <wtogami@gmail.com>wrote:
> bitcoinj-0.10 release notes:
>
> - We now require Bloom-capable (0.8+) peers by default and will
> disconnect from older nodes. This avoids accidental bandwidth saturation on
> mobile devices.
>
> Given the user-security concern that Peter brings up, reconsideration of
> this new default behavior in SPV clients may be warranted.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 4:15 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 10:01:16AM -0400, Peter Todd wrote:
>> > Doing this also makes it more difficult to sybil the network - for
>> > instance right now you can create "SPV honeypots" that allow incoming
>> > connections only from SPV nodes, thus attracting a disproportionate % of
>> > the total SPV population given a relatively small number of nodes. You
>> > can then use that to harm SPV nodes by, for instance, making a % of
>> > transactions be dropped deterministicly, either by the bloom matching
>> > code, or when sent. Users unlucky enough to be surrounded by sybil nodes
>> > will have their transactions mysteriously fail to arrive in their
>> > wallets, or have their transactions mysteriously never confirm. Given
>> > how few full nodes there are, it probably won't take very many honeypots
>> > to pull off this attack, especially if you combine it with a
>> > simultaneous max connections or bloom io attack to degrade the capacity
>> > of honest nodes.
>>
>> Oh, here's an even better way to do the "tx drop" attack: when you drop
>> a transaction, make a fake one that pays the same scriptPubKeys with the
>> same amount, and send it to the SPV peer instead. They'll see the
>> transaction go through and show up in their wallet, but it'll look like
>> it got stuck and never confirmed. They'll soon wind up with a wallet
>> full of useless transactions, effectively locking them out of their
>> money.
>>
>> Here's another question for you Mike: So does bitcoinj have any
>> protections against peers flooding you with useless garbage? It'd be
>> easy to rack up a user's data bill for instance by just creating junk
>> unconfirmed transactions matching the bloom filter.
>>
>> --
>> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>> 0000000000000018dcf5bcc3f018a05517ba1c479b432ba422015d4506496e55
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite!
>> It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production.
>> Get down to code-level detail for bottlenecks, with <2% overhead.
>> Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes.
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>>
>>
>
>
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--001a11c336769d33ab04e41183db
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">That change was made in response to user complaints. Heck =
we get complaints about battery life and bandwidth impact even with Bloom f=
iltering. We can't just randomly start using peoples bandwidth for rela=
ying blocks, especially as I guess most SPV nodes are behind NAT.<div>
<br></div><div>If Gavin is right and the future is dominated by mobiles and=
tablets, then it will require a change of thinking in how P2P networks wor=
k. I think there are plenty of people with private servers who would be wil=
ling to run nodes though. I'm not too worried about this.</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri,=
Aug 16, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Warren Togami Jr. <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:wtogami@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">wtogami@gmail.com</a>></=
span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">bitcoinj-0.10 release notes=
:<div><ul style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.80000019073486=
3px;padding-left:25px;max-width:62em">
<li style=3D"margin-left:15px;margin-bottom:0.3em">We now require Bloom-cap=
able (0.8+) peers by default and will disconnect from older nodes. This avo=
ids accidental bandwidth saturation on mobile devices.</li>
</ul><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Given the user-security concern =
that Peter brings up, reconsideration of this new default behavior in SPV c=
lients may be warranted.</font></div><div><br></div></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Fri, Aug 16, 2=
013 at 4:15 AM, Peter Todd <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:pete@pet=
ertodd.org" target=3D"_blank">pete@petertodd.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><=
/div>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 10:01:16AM -0400, Peter Todd wrote:<br>
> Doing this also makes it more difficult to sybil the network - for<br>
> instance right now you can create "SPV honeypots" that allow=
incoming<br>
> connections only from SPV nodes, thus attracting a disproportionate % =
of<br>
> the total SPV population given a relatively small number of nodes. You=
<br>
> can then use that to harm SPV nodes by, for instance, making a % of<br=
>
> transactions be dropped deterministicly, either by the bloom matching<=
br>
> code, or when sent. Users unlucky enough to be surrounded by sybil nod=
es<br>
> will have their transactions mysteriously fail to arrive in their<br>
> wallets, or have their transactions mysteriously never confirm. Given<=
br>
> how few full nodes there are, it probably won't take very many hon=
eypots<br>
> to pull off this attack, especially if you combine it with a<br>
> simultaneous max connections or bloom io attack to degrade the capacit=
y<br>
> of honest nodes.<br>
<br>
</div>Oh, here's an even better way to do the "tx drop" attac=
k: when you drop<br>
a transaction, make a fake one that pays the same scriptPubKeys with the<br=
>
same amount, and send it to the SPV peer instead. They'll see the<br>
transaction go through and show up in their wallet, but it'll look like=
<br>
it got stuck and never confirmed. They'll soon wind up with a wallet<br=
>
full of useless transactions, effectively locking them out of their<br>
money.<br>
<br>
Here's another question for you Mike: So does bitcoinj have any<br>
protections against peers flooding you with useless garbage? It'd be<br=
>
easy to rack up a user's data bill for instance by just creating junk<b=
r>
unconfirmed transactions matching the bloom filter.<br>
<div><div><br>
--<br>
'peter'[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org" target=3D"_blank">pet=
ertodd.org</a><br>
0000000000000018dcf5bcc3f018a05517ba1c479b432ba422015d4506496e55<br>
</div></div><br></div></div><div class=3D"im">-----------------------------=
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velopment</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite!<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
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velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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