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From: Alan Evans <thealanevans@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 09:48:25 -0400
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To: Devrandom <c1.bitcoin@niftybox.net>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Card Shuffle To Bitcoin Seed
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It's not quite enough to just do SHA512, you missed out this condition
(incredibly rare as it is):
> In case IL is 0 or =E2=89=A5n, the master key is invalid.
Also I can't see how I would use this to seed a hardware wallet that
requires a BIP39 seed as mentioned in your abstract.
For both of those reasons, you may want to just invent/formalize a scheme
that takes Cards -> Entropy.
From that Entropy one can generate BIP39, and non-BIP39 fans can just
continue, generate and store their root xprv.
Prior art: Note that Ian Coleman's BIP39 site already supports Cards (and
Dice), see the logic here:
https://github.com/iancoleman/bip39/blob/master/src/js/entropy.js
[image: image.png]
Note it detected "full deck". It also calculates the Total Bits of Entropy
and can handle card replacement and multiple decks.
PS, you're a bit out on your entropy calculation, log2(52!) ~=3D 225.58 bit=
s,
not 219.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 02:08, Devrandom via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> I would suggest 50+ 6-sided dice rolls, giving about 128 bits of entropy.
> Compared to a shuffle, it's easier to be sure that you got the right amou=
nt
> of entropy, even if the dice are somewhat biased.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 2:33 PM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 10:27 AM Ryan Havar via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Conveniently a shuffled deck of cards also can serve as a physical
>>> backup which is easy to hide in plain sight with great plausible
>>> deniability.
>>>
>>
>> To make sure someone doesn't play with your cards and mix up the order,
>> use a permanent marker to draw a diagonal line on the side of the deck f=
rom
>> corner to corner. If the cards ever get mixed up, you can put them back =
in
>> order by making sure the diagonal line matches up.
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--00000000000085e1d7058139fb8c
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<div dir=3D"ltr">It's not quite enough to just do SHA512, you missed ou=
t this condition (incredibly rare as it is):<div><br></div><div>> In cas=
e IL is 0 or =E2=89=A5n, the master key is invalid.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Also I can't see how I would use this to seed a hardware wallet that =
requires a BIP39 seed as mentioned in your abstract.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>For both of those reasons, you may want to just invent/formalize a schem=
e that takes Cards -> Entropy.</div><div>From that Entropy one can gener=
ate BIP39, and non-BIP39 fans can just continue, generate and store their r=
oot xprv.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Prior art: Note that Ian Coleman'=
;s BIP39 site already supports Cards (and Dice), see the logic here:=C2=A0<=
a href=3D"https://github.com/iancoleman/bip39/blob/master/src/js/entropy.js=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/iancoleman/bip39/=
blob/master/src/js/entropy.js</a></div><div><br></div><div><div><div><img s=
rc=3D"cid:ii_jrt8lj791" alt=3D"image.png" width=3D"525" height=3D"294"><br>=
</div></div></div><div><br></div><div>Note it detected "full deck"=
;. It also calculates the Total Bits of Entropy and can handle card replace=
ment and multiple decks.</div><div><br></div><div>PS, you're a bit out =
on your entropy calculation, log2(52!) ~=3D 225.58 bits, not 219.</div><div=
><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 02:08, Devrandom via bitcoin-dev <<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linux=
foundation.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I would suggest 50+ 6-sided dice rolls, givi=
ng about 128 bits of entropy.=C2=A0 Compared to a shuffle, it's easier =
to be sure that you got the right amount of entropy, even if the dice are s=
omewhat biased.<div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 2:33 PM James MacWhyte=
via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail-m_2=
502680302958532490gmail-m_5907409456106827790gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div>James<br></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 10:27 =
AM Ryan Havar via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linux=
foundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>=
> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
>Conveniently a shuffled deck of cards also can serve as a physical backup =
which is easy to hide in plain sight with great plausible deniability.</div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>To make sure someone doesn't play wit=
h your cards and mix up the order, use a permanent marker to draw a diagona=
l line on the side of the deck from corner to corner. If the cards ever get=
mixed up, you can put them back in order by making sure the diagonal line =
matches up.=C2=A0</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
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rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
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