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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Mempool spam] Should we as developers reject
non-standard Taproot transactions from full nodes?
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> And prevent perfectly reasonable transfers of value
Such a transfer can only be reasonable when off-chain value is attached
to the coins. A rule like this is the embodiment of the philosophy that
the Bitcoin network is for onchain-economic transactions.
Parties could get around the rule by paying miners off-network, and that
would be an appropriate penalty for using non-onchain-economic transactions.
On 5/8/23 10:13, Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > probably easier just to reject any transaction where the fee is
> higher than the sum of the outputs
>
> And prevent perfectly reasonable transfers of value and attempted
> Lightning channel closes during fee spikes? If I *want* to close my
> Lightning channel during a protracted fee spike where I have to pay an
> onchain transaction fee greater than the amount I am receiving you
> want to stop me doing that? You are impinging on a valid use case as
> well as requiring a consensus rule change.
>
> -- Michael Folkson
> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com <http://protonmail.com/>
> GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F
> Learn about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 13:58, Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> probably easier just to reject any transaction where the fee is
>> higher than the sum of the outputs
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 8, 2023, 7:55 AM Ali Sherief via bitcoin-dev
>> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I think everyone on this list knows what has happened to the
>> Bitcoin mempool during the past 96 hours. Due to side projects
>> such as BRC-20 having such a high volume, real bitcoin
>> transactions are being priced out and that is what is causing the
>> massive congestion that has arguable not been seen since December
>> 2017. I do not count the March 2021 congestion because that was
>> only with 1-5sat/vbyte.
>>
>> Such justifiably worthless ("worthless" is not even my word -
>> that's how its creator described them[1]) tokens threaten the
>> smooth and normal use of the Bitcoin network as a peer-to-pear
>> digital currency, as it was intended to be used as.
>>
>> If the volume does not die down over the next few weeks, should
>> we take an action? The bitcoin network is a triumvirate of
>> developers, miners, and users. Considering that miners are
>> largely the entities at fault for allowing the system to be
>> abused like this, the harmony of Bitcoin transactions is being
>> disrupted right now. Although this community has a strong history
>> of not putting its fingers into pies unless absolutely necessary
>> - an example being during the block size wars and Segwit - should
>> similar action be taken now, in the form of i) BIPs and/or ii)
>> commits into the Bitcoin Core codebase, to curtail the loophole
>> in BIP 342 (which defines the validation rules for Taproot
>> scripts) which has allowed these unintended consequences?
>>
>> An alternative would be to enforce this "censorship" at the node
>> level and introduce a run-time option to instantly prune all
>> non-standard Taproot transactions. This will be easier to
>> implement, but won't hit the road until minimum next release.
>>
>> I know that some people will have their criticisms about this,
>> absolutists/libertarians/maximum-freedom advocates, which is
>> fine, but we need to find a solution for this that fits
>> everyone's common ground. We indirectly allowed this to happen,
>> which previously wasn't possible before. So we also have a
>> responsibility to do something to ensure that this kind of
>> congestion can never happen again using Taproot.
>>
>> -Ali
>>
>> ---
>>
>> [1]:
>> https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-the-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/
>> <https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-the-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/?outputType=amp>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
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<p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,
sans-serif;display:inline !important">And prevent perfectly
reasonable transfers of value</span></blockquote>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Such a transfer can only be reasonable when off-chain value is
attached to the coins.=C2=A0 A rule like this is the embodiment of =
the
philosophy that the Bitcoin network is for onchain-economic
transactions.<br>
</p>
<p>Parties could get around the rule by paying miners off-network,
and that would be an appropriate penalty for using
non-onchain-economic transactions.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 5/8/23 10:13, Michael Folkson via
bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"
cite=3D"mid:-2tdTjN6WfQI-CTPM49DiMOC2X5El1vJdlWTQvpalXAHKVLdFd_7ADpYN7Cz5=
7v0fJSkaiG75fHJzcBtvJgn7Pj-RZrEk6hXk6Rp_1Y7SrE=3D@protonmail.com">
<meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DU=
TF-8">
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">>=
;=C2=A0<span
style=3D"font-family:system-ui, sans-serif;display:inline
!important">probably easier just to reject any transaction
where the fee is higher than the sum of the outputs</span></div=
>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><sp=
an
style=3D"font-family:system-ui, sans-serif;display:inline
!important"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><sp=
an
style=3D"font-family:system-ui, sans-serif;display:inline
!important">And prevent perfectly reasonable transfers of
value and attempted Lightning channel closes during fee
spikes? If I <b>want</b>=E2=80=8B to close my Lightning channel=
during a protracted fee spike where I have to pay an onchain
transaction fee greater than the amount I am receiving you
want to stop me doing that? You are impinging on a valid use
case as well as requiring a consensus rule change.</span></div>=
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><sp=
an
style=3D"font-family:system-ui, sans-serif;display:inline
!important"><br>
</span></div>
<div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block" style=3D"font-family: Ari=
al,
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px;"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing=
:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline;"><span =
style=3D"font-family:'SFMono-Regular', Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Menlo=
, monospace, monospace;" class=3D"font"><span style=3D"font-size:14px;" c=
lass=3D"size">--
Michael Folkson</span></span></span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px;"><span style=3D=
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, monospace, monospace;" class=3D"font"><span style=3D"font-size:14px;" c=
lass=3D"size">Email: michaelfolkson at </span></span></span><a href=3D"ht=
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ne;font-family:'SFMono-Regular', Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Menlo, mono=
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</span></span></span></span></div>
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style=3D"font-family:'SFMono-Regular', Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Menlo=
, monospace, monospace;" class=3D"font"><span style=3D"font-size:14px;" c=
lass=3D"size"><span>Learn about Bitcoin: <span><a href=3D"https://www.you=
tube.com/@portofbitcoin" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" mo=
z-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.youtub=
e.com/@portofbitcoin</a></span></span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-proton
protonmail_signature_block-empty"> </div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br=
>
</div>
<div class=3D"protonmail_quote"> ------- Original Message -------<b=
r>
On Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 13:58, Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org"><bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org></a>=
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"protonmail_quote" type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"auto">probably easier just to reject any transactio=
n
where the fee is higher than the sum of the outputs
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, May 8, 2023, 7:=
55
AM Ali Sherief via bitcoin-dev <<a
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank"
moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
Hi
guys,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
I
think everyone on this list knows what has happened to
the Bitcoin mempool during the past 96 hours. Due to
side projects such as BRC-20 having such a high volume,
real bitcoin transactions are being priced out and that
is what is causing the massive congestion that has
arguable not been seen since December 2017. I do not
count the March 2021 congestion because that was only
with 1-5sat/vbyte.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
Such
justifiably worthless ("worthless" is not even my word -
that's how its creator described them[1]) tokens
threaten the smooth and normal use of the Bitcoin
network as a peer-to-pear digital currency, as it was
intended to be used as.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
If
the volume does not die down over the next few weeks,
should we take an action? The bitcoin network is a
triumvirate of developers, miners, and users.
Considering that miners are largely the entities at
fault for allowing the system to be abused like this,
the harmony of Bitcoin transactions is being disrupted
right now. Although this community has a strong history
of not putting its fingers into pies unless absolutely
necessary - an example being during the block size wars
and Segwit - should similar action be taken now, in the
form of i) BIPs and/or ii) commits into the Bitcoin Core
codebase, to curtail the loophole in BIP 342 (which
defines the validation rules for Taproot scripts) which
has allowed these unintended consequences?</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
An
alternative would be to enforce this "censorship" at the
node level and introduce a run-time option to instantly
prune all non-standard Taproot transactions. This will
be easier to implement, but won't hit the road until
minimum next release.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
I
know that some people will have their criticisms about
this, absolutists/libertarians/maximum-freedom
advocates, which is fine, but we need to find a solution
for this that fits everyone's common ground. We
indirectly allowed this to happen, which previously
wasn't possible before. So we also have a responsibility
to do something to ensure that this kind of congestion
can never happen again using Taproot.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
-Ali</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
---</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
[1]:
<span><a target=3D"_blank"
href=3D"https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-b=
rcs-the-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/?outputType=3Damp"
rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener"
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.coindesk.com/con=
sensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-the-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin=
-backed-tokens/</a></span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank"
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener"
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinf=
o/bitcoin-dev"
moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext">=
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class=3D"moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">____________________________=
___________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.=
org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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