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From: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 16:03:58 +0200
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To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
	danger
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Just a further follow up here please see below feedback from Max CEO of
Coinspaid - I asked him to send me a mail.

Peter - I can understand why some of our statistics seems off, some of our
clients when they have multiple outputs going to their cluster will query
each trx hash with a separate output address as for them they need each trx
or output deposit covered/guaranteed so we would count that trx hash each
time it is queried with a different output address as a trxs - this would
mean that value of our total processed is possibly a more
reflective indicator. Apologies for this inclarity we are not used to
communicating our statistics at all - its just not our nature.

I would think looking at Nov 2022 Stats - 900k unique trx hashes queried,
with 1.5m trxs on our count since trx hashes are queried with different
output addresses. The actual value is USD 220M benefiting from zero conf
acceptance.

See Maxes email below - I will also forward the email as is to the list


Hi Daniel,

Hope you are doing fine. I know you are in discussions with Bitcoin Core
team or RBF updates.
With current email, wanted to confirm that we are running quite a big
Bitcoin payment operation with over 300k incoming transactions, with 700+
inputs a month. Which is a fair percentage of overall BTC chain capacity
and we do enjoy zero conf flows that you offer. Our clients do like to give
instant experience to their end customers, I would not want to disappoint
them with news that =E2=80=9Cwaiting for confirmations=E2=80=9D is on a tab=
le again, after
all these years of smooth experience.

2 main production clusters are rotating around:
3JodN7GmkHdPgKj9G7HCkn9NDLhrcWCjVN
3QKCocNhzAgtgFLsD5qUZcG6e4TkfRf421

Kind regards,
Max Krupyshev
Founder & Leader
coinspaid.com // cryptoprocessing.com
Berlin, Germany
telegram: mkrupyshev
________________________________

Daniel Lipshitz
GAP600| www.gap600.com
Phone: +44 113 4900 117
Skype: daniellipshitz123
Twitter: @daniellipshitz


On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 3:17 PM Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com> wrote:

> The statistics that I have stated are based on trxs that rely on our tool=
.
> They are not overstated, this is a reflection of the 0conf market on BTC.
>
> They are trxs which our clients query via the API and which I clients pay
> subscription for.
>
> There is no point for clients to send us trxs they don=E2=80=99t want or =
need our
> response from. We are a B2b provider so we are not sure how and who the e=
nd
> users and applications are.
>
> Coinify definitely doesn=E2=80=99t send us all their traffic, as I would =
think
> some of our other clients.
>
> Here is some external confirmation a bit old though but still-
> https://blog.coinpayments.net/news-features/gap600
> You can also see our video of Coinspaid using our service on our site -
> all our Marcom is a bit old.
>
> We service primarily payment processors and liquidity providers and not
> end merchants so I can=E2=80=99t say how and to who end clients implement=
 it.
>
> If AML/KYC was enough to prevent double spends all exchanges would offer
> 0conf.
>
> I don=E2=80=99t know the split with our clients as it=E2=80=99s non of ou=
r business but
> definitely a significant amount of end users are not Kyced for the trxs.
>
> Best would be to try and talk to some of our major clients - ie
> Coinpayments, Coinspaid and Coinify.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 at 14:12 Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Dec 03, 2022 at 01:01:16PM +0200, Daniel Lipshitz wrote:
>> > Shapeshift used to be clients in fact one of our first when we started
>> in
>> > 2016.
>> >
>> > They no longer use our service but from time to time use us for fee
>> > recommendations. So we actually should remove their logo as a current
>> > client.
>>
>> Yes you should. When did ShapeShift stop using your service? Did they
>> explain
>> why?
>>
>> > If you wish to test it out try find a merchant using Coinpayments or
>> > Coinspaid.
>> >
>> > Also some of our non custodial liquidity providers offer service no
>> > custodial wallets. I am not sure which.
>>
>> I see that you also advertise that Gap600 is "Trusted by" Coindirect and
>> Coinify, both AML/KYC crypto exchanges. Obviously, with full AML/KYC
>> double-spends are not much of a concern. And it's not even clear that
>> either accepts zeroconf anyway, as I'll explain later.
>>
>> On this list you claimed that:
>>
>> >  1. As of end of Nov 2022 - GAP600 has processed i.e responded to circ=
a
>> >  15M transactions
>> >  2. These transactions have a cumulative value of 2.3B USD value.
>> >  3. We currently are seeing circa 1.5M transactions queired per month.
>>
>> What's the value and number of transactions that *actually* rely on your
>> unconfirmed transaction tools? The only category that would apply for is
>> goods
>> provided immediately and irrovocably, without AML/KYC. Because it sounds
>> like
>> these figures may be significantly overstated.
>>
>>
>> Re: CoinsPaid, what you say here makes it also sound like it relies on
>> AML/KYC:
>>
>> > CoinsPaid applies a special software tool across its solutions to
>> conduct
>> > stringent KYC procedures and a risk-based approach to CDD that verify
>> user
>> > identities to mitigate fraud, money laundering and other activities
>> linked to
>> > criminality and terrorism.
>> https://www.gap600.com/uncategorized/coinspaid/
>>
>> Re: Coindirect, the documentation I can find appears to say that
>> confirmations
>> are required before you can use coins deposited into Coindirect:
>>
>> > Digital currency transactions must be confirmed on the relevant networ=
k
>> block
>> > before they are considered valid. Only once confirmed, will you be abl=
e
>> to
>> > use the coins deposited in your Coindirect wallet.
>>
>> https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002441974-How-quickly-c=
an-I-use-coins-deposited-into-my-Coindirect-wallet-
>>
>> This is repeated here as well:
>> https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409120006546--Deposits-
>>
>> Re: Coinify, the API docs don't give any indication of risk scoring or a=
ny
>> other Gap600 integration:
>>
>> https://merchant.coinify.com/docs/api/#payment-object
>>
>> --
>> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>>
> --
> ________________________________
> Daniel Lipshitz
> GAP600
> www.Gap600.com
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Just a further follow up here please see below feedback fr=
om Max CEO of Coinspaid - I asked him to send me a mail.<div><br></div><div=
>Peter - I can understand why some of our statistics seems off, some of our=
 clients when they have multiple outputs going to their cluster will query =
each trx hash with a separate=C2=A0output address as for them they need eac=
h trx or output deposit covered/guaranteed so we would count that trx hash =
each time it is queried with a different output address as a trxs - this wo=
uld mean that value of our total processed is possibly a more reflective=C2=
=A0indicator. Apologies for this inclarity we are not used to communicating=
 our statistics at all - its just not our nature.</div><div><br></div><div>=
I would think looking at Nov 2022 Stats - 900k unique trx hashes=C2=A0queri=
ed, with 1.5m trxs on our count since trx hashes are queried with different=
 output addresses. The actual value is USD 220M benefiting from zero conf a=
cceptance.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>See Maxes email below - I will al=
so forward the email as is to the list</div><div><br></div><div><div class=
=3D"gmail-aju" style=3D"float:none;padding:0px 16px;display:flex;height:80p=
x;min-width:40px;font-family:&quot;Google Sans&quot;,Roboto,RobotoDraft,Hel=
vetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:medium"><div class=3D"gmail-aCi" style=3D=
""><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail-gs" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px =
0px 20px;width:918px;font-family:&quot;Google Sans&quot;,Roboto,RobotoDraft=
,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:medium"><div class=3D"gmail-gE gmail-=
iv gmail-gt" style=3D"font-size:0.875rem;padding:20px 0px 0px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Daniel,</spa=
n><br></div><div class=3D"gmail-"><div id=3D"gmail-:py" class=3D"gmail-ii g=
mail-gt" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:8px 0px 0px;padding:0px;font-size:0.=
875rem"><div id=3D"gmail-:y8" class=3D"gmail-a3s gmail-aiL" style=3D"font-v=
ariant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;fo=
nt-size:small;line-height:1.5;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;overfl=
ow:hidden"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br></div><div>Ho=
pe you are doing fine. I know you are in discussions with Bitcoin Core team=
 or RBF updates.</div><div>With current email, wanted to confirm that we ar=
e running quite a big Bitcoin payment operation with over 300k incoming tra=
nsactions, with 700+ inputs a month. Which is a fair percentage of overall =
BTC chain capacity and we do enjoy zero conf flows that you offer. Our clie=
nts do like to give instant experience to their end customers, I would not =
want to disappoint them with news that =E2=80=9Cwaiting for confirmations=
=E2=80=9D is on a table again, after all these years of smooth experience.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>2 main production clusters are rotating around:</d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;fon=
t-family:&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;">3JodN7GmkHdPgKj9G7HCkn9NDLhrcWCjVN</di=
v></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;fon=
t-family:&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;"><div style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:=
normal;line-height:normal">3QKCocNhzAgtgFLsD5qUZcG6e4TkfRf421</div></div><b=
r><div><div>Kind regards,<br>Max Krupyshev<br>Founder &amp; Leader<br><a hr=
ef=3D"http://coinspaid.com/" target=3D"_blank">coinspaid.com</a>=C2=A0//=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"http://cryptoprocessing.com/" target=3D"_blank">cryptoprocess=
ing.com</a>=C2=A0<br>Berlin, Germany<br>telegram: mkrupyshev</div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">________________________________</div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font f=
ace=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Daniel Lipshitz</font></div><div style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">GAP600|=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"http://www.gap600.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</a><=
/font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"=
tahoma, sans-serif">Phone:=C2=A0</font><span style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:12.8px">+44 113 4900 117</span></div><div style=3D"font-=
size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Skype: dani=
ellipshitz123</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
<font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Twitter: @daniellipshitz</font></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 3:17 PM Daniel L=
ipshitz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniel@gap600.com">daniel@gap600.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"auto">The statistics that I have stated are based on trxs that rely on =
our tool. They are not overstated, this is a reflection of the 0conf market=
 on BTC.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">They are trxs w=
hich our clients query via the API and which I clients pay subscription for=
.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There is no point for =
clients to send us trxs they don=E2=80=99t want or need our response from. =
We are a B2b provider so we are not sure how and who the end users and appl=
ications=C2=A0are.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Coini=
fy definitely doesn=E2=80=99t send us all their traffic, as I would think s=
ome of our other clients.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">Here is some external confirmation a bit old though but still-=C2=A0</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><div><a href=3D"https://blog.coinpayments.net/news-featu=
res/gap600" target=3D"_blank">https://blog.coinpayments.net/news-features/g=
ap600</a></div><div dir=3D"auto">You can also see our video of Coinspaid us=
ing our service on our site - all our Marcom is a bit old.</div></div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We service primarily payment proce=
ssors and liquidity providers and not end merchants so I can=E2=80=99t say =
how and to who end clients implement it.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">If AML/KYC was enough to prevent double spends all exchang=
es would offer 0conf.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">I don=E2=80=99t know the split with our clients as it=E2=80=99s non of =
our business but definitely a significant amount of end users are not Kyced=
 for the trxs.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Bes=
t would be to try and talk to some of our major clients - ie Coinpayments, =
Coinspaid and Coinify.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 at 14:12 Peter Todd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pete@p=
etertodd.org" target=3D"_blank">pete@petertodd.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Sat, Dec 03, 2022 at 0=
1:01:16PM +0200, Daniel Lipshitz wrote:<br>
&gt; Shapeshift used to be clients in fact one of our first when we started=
 in<br>
&gt; 2016.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; They no longer use our service but from time to time use us for fee<br=
>
&gt; recommendations. So we actually should remove their logo as a current<=
br>
&gt; client.<br>
<br>
Yes you should. When did ShapeShift stop using your service? Did they expla=
in<br>
why?<br>
<br>
&gt; If you wish to test it out try find a merchant using Coinpayments or<b=
r>
&gt; Coinspaid.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Also some of our non custodial liquidity providers offer service no<br=
>
&gt; custodial wallets. I am not sure which.<br>
<br>
I see that you also advertise that Gap600 is &quot;Trusted by&quot; Coindir=
ect and<br>
Coinify, both AML/KYC crypto exchanges. Obviously, with full AML/KYC<br>
double-spends are not much of a concern. And it&#39;s not even clear that<b=
r>
either accepts zeroconf anyway, as I&#39;ll explain later.<br>
<br>
On this list you claimed that:<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 1. As of end of Nov 2022 - GAP600 has processed i.e responded to=
 circa<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 15M transactions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 2. These transactions have a cumulative value of 2.3B USD value.=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 3. We currently are seeing circa 1.5M transactions queired per m=
onth.<br>
<br>
What&#39;s the value and number of transactions that *actually* rely on you=
r<br>
unconfirmed transaction tools? The only category that would apply for is go=
ods<br>
provided immediately and irrovocably, without AML/KYC. Because it sounds li=
ke<br>
these figures may be significantly overstated.<br>
<br>
<br>
Re: CoinsPaid, what you say here makes it also sound like it relies on AML/=
KYC:<br>
<br>
&gt; CoinsPaid applies a special software tool across its solutions to cond=
uct<br>
&gt; stringent KYC procedures and a risk-based approach to CDD that verify =
user<br>
&gt; identities to mitigate fraud, money laundering and other activities li=
nked to<br>
&gt; criminality and terrorism.<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.gap600.com/uncategorized/coinspaid/" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.gap600.com/uncategorized/coinspaid/</a><b=
r>
<br>
Re: Coindirect, the documentation I can find appears to say that confirmati=
ons<br>
are required before you can use coins deposited into Coindirect:<br>
<br>
&gt; Digital currency transactions must be confirmed on the relevant networ=
k block<br>
&gt; before they are considered valid. Only once confirmed, will you be abl=
e to<br>
&gt; use the coins deposited in your Coindirect wallet.<br>
<a href=3D"https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002441974-How-q=
uickly-can-I-use-coins-deposited-into-my-Coindirect-wallet-" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002=
441974-How-quickly-can-I-use-coins-deposited-into-my-Coindirect-wallet-</a>=
<br>
<br>
This is repeated here as well: <a href=3D"https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en=
-us/articles/4409120006546--Deposits-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409120006546--Deposits-</a>=
<br>
<br>
Re: Coinify, the API docs don&#39;t give any indication of risk scoring or =
any<br>
other Gap600 integration:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://merchant.coinify.com/docs/api/#payment-object" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://merchant.coinify.com/docs/api/#payment-=
object</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://petertodd.org</a> &#39;peter&#39;[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr">__________________________=
______<br>Daniel Lipshitz<br>GAP600<br><a href=3D"http://www.Gap600.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">www.Gap600.com</a><br><br><br></div>
</blockquote></div>

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