1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
|
Return-Path: <user@petertodd.org>
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06859C002D
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 20 Oct 2022 04:10:54 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED0241832
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 20 Oct 2022 04:10:53 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org AED0241832
Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key,
unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com
header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=jfz0Dn5w
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.602
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id 2t7e9pHs_Kkx
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 20 Oct 2022 04:10:51 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:14 by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org BA75E414C5
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com
[64.147.123.19])
by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA75E414C5
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 20 Oct 2022 04:10:51 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46])
by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2DD3200938;
Thu, 20 Oct 2022 00:05:36 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162])
by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 20 Oct 2022 00:05:36 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=
messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id
:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id
:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to
:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=
fm3; t=1666238735; x=1666325135; bh=5Y+yYz4cwqMkHKcg5EGCNZ2DvmqB
3tVa0elYcLwDveY=; b=jfz0Dn5wjmFJhWWgJLOyKvxedGg8jF7QonuSDgDz4OV6
KOzOmmJILceExiAjVS6WWv858QSnUIJqm8BVnMBsJzhwk7SCU50WzYWNxPNr89AU
T20SCAEJjWDxSkTi0kPKjFxV47kSPvj7Ek6soRP+wT81bQwG26+bKkfrpxCAgUtJ
DVX3z6Dz8DhVklMFaIR/H29cJtpdFf+00qKdNDyc19N2TOLSawjFFvBmtHrdi0a7
xOuALec0XPacOHboVq3hDMy1B5YN1MlgTW5sdAJ7qeBOfV/2SFGz6ODOJporc4/O
LZr91pzz6iOEWWQjEjf0vjjdI7VnC5v4C+XR6/4JpQ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:D8lQYyWvB5T-eZ21yiRY8eH38d7jvWfOVBCGRvcbsQ1pMG_-8ugRpg>
<xme:D8lQY-nsssJpsMHBGAOZQGQktkXQE0KDTWsNM3ORTpGDaqRaAhe2ewoZG-b-u7BiQ
KSwmSY9g-EIIKyYSJE>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:D8lQY2aNNBMiZATrZ_enJpuuMud6f3yuBLF3kpbORdxCSTETqfClETFNN3MOjP5Gs9yO8E-FBZYeGXSiitS_VTwSY-iH>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedrfeelhedgjeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf
fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen
uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne
cujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghr
ucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg
hrnhepiedvvdelieekjeeukefgtdelfeegheehleffueehteeghfelveejfeelgeevffef
necuffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivg
eptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepuhhsvghrsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdho
rhhg
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:D8lQY5VEVXcLUdHxhzyCvAnUe-rFlIEsOXUItCIvcanJ9Pz_RAU78g>
<xmx:D8lQY8nVixYG6d4NoQKM42W9_ARP8BM6WrQFdRG7CZvRSk_RaoQxNA>
<xmx:D8lQY-c4zx-75lNHHTxX46rukRU_UzVDnts7bMFEmyHhXfWFyPnB1Q>
<xmx:D8lQY2g0GWbxd7QM-h4woDmYlP1D40KPifSgmX-vX-zjJMLoTIol_A>
Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu,
20 Oct 2022 00:05:35 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000)
id B9483205F4; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 00:05:33 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 00:05:33 -0400
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Sergej Kotliar <sergej@bitrefill.com>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Message-ID: <Y1DJDR/28XhUbirX@petertodd.org>
References: <CABZBVTC5kh7ca3KhVkFPdQjnsPhP4Kun1k3K6cPkarrjUiTJpA@mail.gmail.com>
<CABZBVTCgiQFtxEyeOU=-SGDQUDthyy7sOgPwiT+OVi35LVivyA@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fFUF/TJME1bdDiY5"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CABZBVTCgiQFtxEyeOU=-SGDQUDthyy7sOgPwiT+OVi35LVivyA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
danger
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 04:10:54 -0000
--fFUF/TJME1bdDiY5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 04:29:57PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev wr=
ote:
> Hi all,
>=20
> Chiming in on this thread as I feel like the real dangers of RBF as defau=
lt
> policy aren't sufficiently elaborated here. It's not only about the
> zero-conf (I'll get to that) but there is an even bigger danger called the
> american call option, which risks endangering the entirety of BIP21 "Scan
> this QR code with your wallet to buy this product" model that I believe
> we've all come to appreciate. Specifically, in a scenario with high
> volatility and many transactions in the mempools (which is where RBF would
> come in handy), a user can make a low-fee transaction and then wait for
> hours, days or even longer, and see whether BTCUSD moves. If BTCUSD moves
> up, user can cancel his transaction and make a new - cheaper one. The
I just checked this, and Bitrefill accepts transactions with RBF enabled.
> biggest risk in accepting bitcoin payments is in fact not zeroconf risk
> (it's actually quite easily managed), it's FX risk as the merchant must
> commit to a certain BTCUSD rate ahead of time for a purchase. Over time
> some transactions lose money to FX and others earn money - that evens out
> in the end. But if there is an _easily accessible in the wallet_ feature =
to
> "cancel transaction" that means it will eventually get systematically
=2E..and I checked this with Electrum on Android, which has a handy "Cancel
Transaction" feature in the UI to easily cancel a payment. Which I did. You
should have a pending payment from this email, and unsurprisingly I don't h=
ave
my gift card. :)
The ship has already sailed on this. I'd suggest accepting Lightning, which
drastically shortens the time window involved.
FWIW, fixedfloat.com already deals with this call option risk by charging a
higher fee (1% vs 0.5%) for conversions where the exact destination amount =
has
been locked in; the default is for the exact destination amount to be picke=
d at
the moment of confirmation.
> abused. A risk of X% loss on many payments that's easy to systematically
> Bitrefill currently processes 1500-2000 onchain payments every day. For u=
s,
> a world where bitcoin becomes de facto RBF by default, means that we would
Electrum is RBF by default. So does Green Wallet, and many other wallets, =
as
well as many exchanges. Most of those wallets/exchanges don't even have a w=
ay
to send a transaction without RBF. This ship has sailed.
--=20
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
--fFUF/TJME1bdDiY5
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEFcyURjhyM68BBPYTJIFAPaXwkfsFAmNQyQgACgkQJIFAPaXw
kfuniAf8C9C0yNAHCEku+Zg4gmx/S1kBalf+K0ZgPb+ms9Zs4XZo0gTaYF9mIMSB
v5oNmukTuYd7p0wCKcoVZxpFnuREZQUQqHV8698YVByLeu9wLn36j91MJBZVxklD
SHLllHFKkIX8ANYyOtPPGyYh0C1XsSebJ7lZrO3rr1+z6pv0dKoLdYS/kjXX1ski
3L5gPUFhrc/6hxpasUKoHJyLfZ10M4pCvbII4HAS5FawRXUiHpCUQ82js9UppEvK
NF5WNeLjuJ4owjx3sbZMCMWMGabl6btCeM19WYaG9+hkT+kDsbfBcmAE1/XCKWP7
Xg0CTEcyhlbyvMOdrPr9LkiMZ8EyUw==
=iKeV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--fFUF/TJME1bdDiY5--
|
