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Date: Wed, 28 May 2025 06:16:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Proposal to solve the spam war: configurable data
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> If we need two networks, one for stuff like what Citrea is doing and the=
=20
other for finance with a technological fence around it, I'm all for it. Has=
=20
Citrea heard of nostr?

Citrea, like Lightning, is relying on Bitcoin's proof of publication to=20
ultimately move bitcoin. Moving the data elsewhere would change the L2's=20
security model drastically.

Greg

On Tuesday, May 27, 2025 at 7:15:06=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 Dave Scotese wrote:

> As far as I can tell, the resource being wasted is the bandwidth of those=
=20
> who are (currently kind enough to be) maintaining the network. They are=
=20
> giving away that bandwidth for free, and I think they ought to be=20
> compensated for it, but until enough of it is "wasted", the demand for su=
ch=20
> compensation will remain too low for that problem to be solved. Everyone=
=20
> who broadcasts a transaction offers the miners the chance to earn a fee,=
=20
> and those miners seem to me to be the only ones with the right incentive =
to=20
> solve the problem (because if it gets bad enough, they don't get valuable=
=20
> bitcoin transactions to mine quickly enough). I believe that in time,=20
> miners will develop a way of privately compensating transaction relayers=
=20
> for this reason. I would very much enjoy seeing the propagation of data=
=20
> grow as a market on its own in which nerds like me could participate simp=
ly=20
> by leaving their internet-connected machines on all the time and=20
> maintaining the software that runs it.
>
> Protecting Bitcoin from becoming that market and perhaps crowding out its=
=20
> financial utility might not be such a good idea, but distributing Bitcoin=
=20
> technology has vastly lowered the cost of financial transactions for=20
> everyone. If we need two networks, one for stuff like what Citrea is doin=
g=20
> and the other for finance with a technological fence around it, I'm all f=
or=20
> it. Has Citrea heard of nostr?
>
> Dave Scotese
>
> On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 10:18=E2=80=AFAM Jonathan Voss <k98...@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>
>> My understanding is that Citrea is using a ZKP proof to recover from an=
=20
>> invalid protocol state. Whatever data gets into the blockchain, the onus=
 is=20
>> on the Citrea-compatible nodes to do the actual validation -- Bitcoin=20
>> itself has no part in this other than distributing the data. Adding a ne=
w=20
>> relay service for promulgating data that is provably committed to in an=
=20
>> OP_RETURN would not be a significant additional burden to the L2 protoco=
l=20
>> if this additional relay service is adopted by a sufficient proportion o=
f=20
>> nodes, and L2 protocol participants would have an incentive to run this =
new=20
>> relay service for their own benefit, so they would likely already have t=
he=20
>> data cached by the time the transaction is confirmed. I don't have any h=
ard=20
>> numbers on this, but my conjecture is that L2 protocols would run enough=
=20
>> relays themselves for the system to be viable, and the clear segregation=
=20
>> between arbitrary data ephemerally cached and monetary data permanently=
=20
>> stored will be enough incentive for many node operators to also adopt it=
.
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 27, 2025 at 12:05:51=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 Russell O'Connor w=
rote:
>>
>>> On Sat, May 24, 2025 at 5:33=E2=80=AFPM Jonathan Voss <k98...@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>>>
>>>> However, the recent discussion premised upon Citrea's Clementine Bridg=
e=20
>>>> evidences primarily that the relaying capabilities of the Bitcoin netw=
ork=20
>>>> itself are sufficiently useful for L2 designers that there is an incen=
tive=20
>>>> to bypass standardness restrictions for the sake of reliably promulgat=
ing=20
>>>> data -- at least in the case of Citrea, they say they need to quickly =
and=20
>>>> widely disseminate 140+ bytes of arbitrary ZKP data to recover from an=
=20
>>>> invalid protocol state, and the utility of that ZKP data very quickly=
=20
>>>> decreases after it has been confirmed and processed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Does your proposal actually solve this problem?  Posting the 140 bytes=
=20
>>> of data to the blockchain works as a public bulletin board because the=
=20
>>> actual data within the block is what is ultimately guaranteed to be=20
>>> disseminated to all participants.  With your proposal, a transaction wi=
th=20
>>> an OP_RETURN containing a hash of data could end up being mined without=
 the=20
>>> relevant transaction ever even being relayed through the Bitcoin networ=
k.
>>>
>>> --=20
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s=20
>> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n=20
>> email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion visit=20
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a484ae6a-33d6-4704-8356-c0e=
d1e5ae376n%40googlegroups.com=20
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a484ae6a-33d6-4704-8356-c0=
ed1e5ae376n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>> .
>>
>
>
> --=20
> I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing=20
> <http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).=20
> I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com>=20
> which now accepts Bitcoin.
> "He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi=20
> Nakamoto
>

--=20
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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&gt; If we need two networks, one for stuff like what Citrea is doing and t=
he other for finance with a technological fence around it, I'm all for it. =
Has Citrea heard of nostr?<div><br /></div><div>Citrea, like Lightning, is =
relying on Bitcoin's proof of publication to ultimately move bitcoin. Movin=
g the data elsewhere would change the L2's security model drastically.</div=
><div><br /></div><div>Greg<br /><br /></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tuesday, May 27, 2025 at 7:15:06=E2=
=80=AFPM UTC-4 Dave Scotese wrote:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204)=
; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">As far as I can tell, the resource b=
eing wasted is the bandwidth of those who are (currently kind enough=C2=A0t=
o be) maintaining the network. They are giving away that bandwidth for free=
, and I think they ought to be compensated for it, but until enough of it i=
s &quot;wasted&quot;, the demand for such compensation will remain too low =
for that problem to be solved. Everyone who broadcasts a transaction offers=
 the miners the chance to earn a fee, and those miners seem to me to be the=
 only ones with the right incentive to solve the problem (because if it get=
s bad enough, they don&#39;t get valuable bitcoin transactions to mine quic=
kly enough). I believe that in time, miners will develop=C2=A0a way of priv=
ately compensating transaction relayers for this reason. I would very much =
enjoy seeing the propagation of data grow as a market on its own in which n=
erds like me could participate simply by leaving their internet-connected m=
achines on all the time and maintaining the software that runs it.<div><br>=
</div><div>Protecting Bitcoin from becoming that market and perhaps crowdin=
g out its financial utility might not be such a good idea, but distributing=
 Bitcoin technology has vastly lowered the cost of financial transactions f=
or everyone. If we need two networks, one for stuff like what Citrea is doi=
ng and the other for finance with a technological fence around it, I&#39;m =
all for it. Has Citrea heard of nostr?</div><div><br></div><div>Dave Scotes=
e</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 10:18=E2=80=
=AFAM Jonathan Voss &lt;<a href data-email-masked rel=3D"nofollow">k98...@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">My understanding is that Citrea is=
 using a ZKP proof to recover from an invalid protocol state. Whatever data=
 gets into the blockchain, the onus is on the Citrea-compatible nodes to do=
 the actual validation -- Bitcoin itself has no part in this other than dis=
tributing the data. Adding a new relay service for promulgating data that i=
s provably committed to in an OP_RETURN would not be a significant addition=
al burden to the L2 protocol if this additional relay service is adopted by=
 a sufficient proportion of nodes, and L2 protocol participants would have =
an incentive to run this new relay service for their own benefit, so they w=
ould likely already have the data cached by the time the transaction is con=
firmed. I don&#39;t have any hard numbers on this, but my conjecture is tha=
t L2 protocols would run enough relays themselves for the system to be viab=
le, and the clear segregation between arbitrary data ephemerally cached and=
 monetary data permanently stored will be enough incentive for many node op=
erators to also adopt it.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"aut=
o" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tuesday, May 27, 2025 at 12:05:51=E2=80=AFPM UTC=
-4 Russell O&#39;Connor wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, May 24, 2025 at 5:33=E2=80=
=AFPM Jonathan Voss &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">k98...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">However, the re=
cent discussion premised upon Citrea&#39;s Clementine Bridge evidences prim=
arily that the relaying capabilities of the Bitcoin network itself are suff=
iciently useful for L2 designers that there is an incentive to bypass stand=
ardness restrictions for the sake of reliably promulgating data -- at least=
 in the case of Citrea, they say they need to quickly and widely disseminat=
e 140+ bytes of arbitrary ZKP data to recover from an invalid protocol stat=
e, and the utility of that ZKP data very quickly decreases after it has bee=
n confirmed and processed.</blockquote><div><br></div></div></div></div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Does your proposa=
l actually solve this problem?=C2=A0 Posting the 140 bytes of data to the b=
lockchain works as a public bulletin board because the actual data within t=
he block is what is ultimately guaranteed to be disseminated to all partici=
pants.=C2=A0 With your proposal, a transaction with an OP_RETURN containing=
 a hash of data could end up being mined without the relevant transaction e=
ver even being relayed through the Bitcoin network.</div><br></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

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6n%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class=
=3D"gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_s=
ignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">I own <a href=3D"http://www.litmocracy.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.c=
om/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttp://www.litmocracy.com&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=
=3D1748524455361000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw1mNSAMgAEbIhiJFKeB5lFR">Litmocracy</a> =
and <a href=3D"http://www.memeracing.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow=
" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttp:/=
/www.memeracing.net&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1748524455361000&amp;usg=
=3DAOvVaw3Y6V0DU9sLzlO9Y-ebMhXd">Meme Racing</a> (in alpha). <br>I&#39;m th=
e webmaster for <a href=3D"http://www.voluntaryist.com" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&=
amp;q=3Dhttp://www.voluntaryist.com&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1748524455=
361000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw2i7yiOMm9Dibhs2zloGPbU">The Voluntaryist</a> which n=
ow accepts Bitcoin.<br>&quot;He ought to find it more profitable to play by=
 the rules&quot; - Satoshi Nakamoto</div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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bitcoindev/2a40a751-d0d1-4dc8-9dd5-67b7652ed8b8n%40googlegroups.com?utm_med=
ium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind=
ev/2a40a751-d0d1-4dc8-9dd5-67b7652ed8b8n%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br />

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