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Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 18:22:44 +0000
To: "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>
From: yurisvb@pm.me
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Lamport scheme (not signature) to economize on L1
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Addendum:

Tomorrow I'll host a Twitter Spaces on this topic:
https://twitter.com/yurivillasboas/status/1743305920937963696
You are all welcome to join!

YSVB

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Friday, January 5th, 2024 at 7:02 PM, yurisvb@pm.me <yurisvb@pm.me> wro=
te:


> Dear friends and colleagues,
> =


> I believe this current version of the protocol and its documentation, no=
w including a diagram answers the questions raised so far:
> =


> https://github.com/Yuri-SVB/LVBsig/blob/main/docs/white_paper.md
> =


> All in all, in addition to the plain transaction TXi, only 36 bytes are =
needed to authenticate it. The number falls to 16 in case of address (addr=
ess chain) is reused, because change address coincides with Lamport-scheme=
 pre-image.
> =


> YSVB.
> =


> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
> =


> =


> On Monday, January 1st, 2024 at 11:17 AM, yurisvb@pm.me yurisvb@pm.me wr=
ote:
> =


> =


> =


> > Hello, Dave,
> > =


> > I'm afraid I didn't understand your objection. It would be great to ha=
ve a direct, real-time conversation with you, if you have the availability=
. Be my guest to DM me for that.
> > =


> > Though this is to be confirmed, I suspect my proposed scheme can be im=
plemented with available, existing Bitcoin infrastructure. As far as my li=
mited knowledge goes, the trickiest part would be to have miners agree tha=
t pre-image of hash of a transaction, in a subsequent block is acceptable =
authentication. As for the commitment, it could be implemented as ordinary=
 smart contracts are, and its size doesn't matter because in the normal us=
e case, it is not mined.
> > =


> > To be clear: The only component that is mined other than addresses and=
 the plaintext transactions would be one hash, between 16 and 20 bytes. Fr=
om the No-Free-Lunch Principle, the cost for it is that transaction takes =
a few blocks, instead of just one to be validated.
> > =


> > YSVB
> > =


> > Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
> > =


> > On Sunday, December 31st, 2023 at 8:33 PM, David A. Harding dave@dtrt.=
org wrote:
> > =


> > > Hi Yuri,
> > > =


> > > I think it's worth noting that for transactions with an equal number=
 of
> > > P2TR keypath spends (inputs) and P2TR outputs, the amount of space u=
sed
> > > in a transaction by the serialization of the signature itself (16 vb=
ytes
> > > per input) ranges from a bit over 14% of transaction size (1-input,
> > > 1-output) to a bit less than 16% (10,000-in, 10,000-out; a ~1 MvB tx=
).
> > > I infer that to mean that the absolute best a signature replacement
> > > scheme can do is free up 16% of block space.
> > > =


> > > An extra 16% of block space is significant, but the advantage of tha=
t
> > > savings needs to be compared to the challenge of creating a highly p=
eer
> > > reviewed implementation of the new signature scheme and then convinc=
ing
> > > a very large number of Bitcoin users to accept it. A soft fork propo=
sal
> > > that introduces new-to-Bitcoin cryptography (such as a different has=
h
> > > function) will likely need to be studied for a prolonged period by m=
any
> > > experts before Bitcoin users become confident enough in it to trust
> > > their bitcoins to it. A hard fork proposal has the same challenges a=
s a
> > > soft fork, plus likely a large delay before it can go into effect, a=
nd
> > > it also needs to be weighed against the much easier process it would=
 be
> > > for experts and users to review a hard fork that increased block
> > > capacity by 16% directly.
> > > =


> > > I haven't fully studied your proposal (as I understand you're workin=
g on
> > > an improved version), but I wanted to put my gut feeling about it in=
to
> > > words to offer feedback (hopefully of the constructive kind): I thin=
k
> > > the savings in block space might not be worth the cost in expert rev=
iew
> > > and user consensus building.
> > > =


> > > That said, I love innovative ideas about Bitcoin and this is one I w=
ill
> > > remember. If you continue working on it, I very much look forward to
> > > seeing what you come up with. If you don't continue working on it, I
> > > believe you're likely to think of something else that will be just a=
s
> > > exciting, if not more so.
> > > =


> > > Thanks for innovating!,
> > > =


> > > -Dave
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