1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
|
Return-Path: <b.dewaal@northernbitcoin.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
[172.17.192.35])
by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D9541012
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:31:49 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from GER01-LEJ-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.de
(mail-le1ger01on0056.outbound.protection.outlook.de [51.5.72.56])
by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE39EDF
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:31:47 +0000 (UTC)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none;
b=k99CqB6bD5QzAbdzmdCGuPtjf0MQfaxPeMilRnlENun2inYOBsn3/syT2mLsONPV9Mpql7WRq5o2GEB7vBacKyQPuUyitJOT2XZgA7YNWaziHYSc1W79vnpZi2ol/uSusK5ukH0TLi8NiHqgMBBl1MnM6isAdRe4tF1mG+XS6rs0Z73xAzn40qOCNK9exwABOwVNLxb+1pYT9yL3L43gOd5Gyy0G5xMyvEFxmO3+s8+08dRqR43gpv4ejtrDYjEji1aiB7FQw+piLKGzxB/bRdnyVTVDUo/8yAejcIBanaD19TG++q6nhxCK+PqX7DZtIzl3cBzqdQ7/LFBrMvF37w==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;
s=arcselector9901;
h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck;
bh=7dSH1LZec9X61dU2AzMZvvsy3ym07kpHfXt6CHRhTqs=;
b=PcMscQm5PmY7LEKamb3OfJNweqgTUfDkiMfOcXJ2h+86m02BPRMU5yQZo2gs7alrOtmbk9Nn1wCs0N9iTJiGW4TrmIQNfPOZt7MEqCxl0MqzjT6hKf+2+2rTCh4BvRTVUbJelFSKBO5AIUz6R2+DQvjTuq0Q8sfjZacrxsNqsWeMSQVmvVBhpiAAhPMdEKPyOqj3mrYDZwnbOWcIOV5PhHuNSGtp2KVA6kdVPhscBolezlCOhwhpaeAjzTTAsk0Y+ib71bNwIknCgnL1JzG1KUXDw4nW2dQBmbp3s7besP3vHysSqkfJc8uKOrpgkhm7l/SnAK7la9LQo9XajmvP2A==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass
smtp.mailfrom=northernbitcoin.com; dmarc=pass action=none
header.from=northernbitcoin.com; dkim=pass header.d=northernbitcoin.com;
arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=northernbitcoinag.onmicrosoft.de;
s=selector1-northernbitcoinag-onmicrosoft-de;
h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck;
bh=7dSH1LZec9X61dU2AzMZvvsy3ym07kpHfXt6CHRhTqs=;
b=VaqDGONL4AhLsO//WQe8VXVyaoGI4YDoNPSFhwQ5jPKPDphRa5zhxMkgBkfZNhvD8ePcjNcwgTNu5TBvvzKCFr7kDI0mXBTcHaZ4aMagCi0xNIdN4t6rrKab0oWjhHbHz7fJcUHWQJDoZ2ppNYXKKGWx+7RIqdCkFL8JSCrU8H0=
Received: from FRXPR01MB0454.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE (10.158.152.149) by
FRXPR01MB1064.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE (10.158.157.17) with Microsoft
SMTP
Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id
15.20.2430.25; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:31:45 +0000
Received: from FRXPR01MB0454.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE
([fe80::9014:4ccd:d9e:efb3]) by FRXPR01MB0454.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE
([fe80::9014:4ccd:d9e:efb3%8]) with mapi id 15.20.2430.028;
Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:31:45 +0000
From: Ben Dewaal <b.dewaal@northernbitcoin.com>
To: EE via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-dev] Towards a singular payment protocol
Thread-Index: AQHVmbm45ePWoU1fUEKN/UAwnLQawKeIxyiggACarICAATDRpQ==
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:31:44 +0000
Message-ID: <FRXPR01MB0454349170173F4A05B14E4C81710@FRXPR01MB0454.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE>
References: <D5859AF5-CA49-42DF-8FAE-5BBBE2DF6699@cypherpunk.org>
<FRXPR01MB04543D16EA2749E6900E8C5B81760@FRXPR01MB0454.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE>,
<FE599986-C494-4473-8AFE-4250BB2533B3@cypherpunk.org>
In-Reply-To: <FE599986-C494-4473-8AFE-4250BB2533B3@cypherpunk.org>
Accept-Language: en-CA, en-DE, en-NZ, en-US
Content-Language: en-CA
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is )
smtp.mailfrom=b.dewaal@northernbitcoin.com;
x-originating-ip: [2a00:c320:2:1:bc86:b3e:c862:7820]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5bc602b3-9f58-443a-b39f-08d768fe9c5d
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: FRXPR01MB1064:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <FRXPR01MB10649822CAAD0707ED9F5AE081710@FRXPR01MB1064.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508;
x-forefront-prvs: 02213C82F8
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;
SFS:(10009020)(366004)(39830400003)(376002)(396003)(346002)(136003)(199004)(189003)(11346002)(55016002)(66556008)(305945005)(76116006)(66574012)(229853002)(446003)(46003)(6116002)(86362001)(64756008)(66946007)(7736002)(256004)(14444005)(508600001)(2906002)(9686003)(53546011)(102836004)(71190400001)(71200400001)(186003)(66476007)(66446008)(7696005)(76176011)(33656002)(8676002)(5660300002)(14454004)(476003)(316002)(486006)(15650500001)(81166006)(81156014)(8936002)(6916009)(6246003);
DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:FRXPR01MB1064;
H:FRXPR01MB0454.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE; FPR:; SPF:None;
LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: northernbitcoin.com does not
designate permitted sender hosts)
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: GKpPuoRcvp3/BYJeoDHxGqYaOEMGvpTALXI5A69Du1Mjyv2Xd3MFMZM9wqDUuwqRwrx2t57x2aofja0RDaIkZg6KbJA/WekuHelTyLhQxoJ0+5ZqYQDwYOE63fPltVciocWgbv+h0hqooTVpk1ZRmuB69DCL4JdzUWiiJGva/p5l5MVbjJD/qpMZOp7YZuO6RwSBiieWEUXw4yA3oxYSTXal8TeQCQCCRXe/dagzHpvcUdFhcIr1ZJ0v0KZ/ogmw5TrAFnOzEpWzylq67qTtXQ3a8tVOKMLuq3xy8pdxsLX7LV+bUElD2/DFYPzdMgUi9RDlUp9FQCn8l/N2J9+WpFJqD+Wwl4KdcN/WlRmNaHrzuWkGYHBCJaAo1McGSPOv3CptkIIu3LXCnUiCaJUZDzqs4F3s9eOgal+MZZzP2dgQyCvFpRiAkmSp/fsrdegU
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: northernbitcoin.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5bc602b3-9f58-443a-b39f-08d768fe9c5d
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2019 12:31:44.9833 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: c0b5a774-f061-4411-9d7b-16ec8f6deb96
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vRNNKI6nsotgTLCkyzpRJx5CmPSqdfO3D6o5X030NL4vGdVD44wFIXhxnMS1XiDyNAHnHPV2R11HqpcTEhON9tz1+x93GAeNfeA0csFAAgE=
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: FRXPR01MB1064
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
DKIM_VALID,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
smtp1.linux-foundation.org
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 18:29:51 +0000
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Towards a singular payment protocol
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:31:49 -0000
On 13 Nov 2019, at 18:49, EE wrote:=0A=
=0A=
> To be fully realized, clearly it would be best to have the others depreci=
ated.=0A=
=0A=
And I'd argue that others won't be deprecated without a strong reason to sw=
itch. Bitcoin is an open protocol and no individual gets to dictate "the ri=
ght way". Just because something makes it in to a draft BIP, it doesn't me=
an it's going to be agreed or implemented.=0A=
=0A=
> I would argue almost no existing standard is fully implemented in any wa=
llet.=0A=
=0A=
This may be the case, but for Bitcoin at least, BIP-21 is relatively well s=
tandardised even if not fully implemented by everyone. That said, I think =
most wallet developers - including myself and my team - would rather keep t=
hings simple until we see a clear way to proceed. My current expectation i=
s to support BOLT11 with BIP-21 fallback, plus BIP-21 standalone. We're bu=
ilding a Bitcoin wallet, not a "cryptocurrency" wallet, so the complexities=
and difficulties that are faced by things other than Bitcoin really aren't=
a concern to me.=0A=
=0A=
> BIP-70 was just depreciated by Bitcoin Core=0A=
=0A=
Just to nitpick: BIP-70 was just deprecated *in* Bitcoin Core. Again, see =
above where no individual gets to dictate those sorts of things.=0A=
=0A=
> Part of the problem here is that these are under supported, and because t=
hey are different, it takes longer for wallet developers to implement.=0A=
=0A=
This works on the assumption of people building cryptocurrency wallets rath=
er than Bitcoin wallets. I reject the idea that that basic assumption has =
any merit to it since in practical terms I see no push towards adoption of =
anything other than Bitcoin, and in theoretical terms, I see no way that an=
ything other than Bitcoin will continue to exist over the mid to long term.=
Spending effort to add standards to Bitcoin that bring no benefit to Bitc=
oin simply seems like a waste of time.=0A=
=0A=
> I think it=92s a mistake to say that the payment protocol is part of the =
blockchain and needs to be developed in tandem with it. In almost every way=
, it is not part of the blockchain, and is a layer above it.=0A=
=0A=
Here, we agree. Payments are indeed separate to the underlying technology.=
The Lightning Network is a payment network and can be used with other blo=
ckchains (assuming you're willing to trust their fundamentally flawed secur=
ity models). With this in mind, why define a new standard when those other=
projects could just start using Lightning and take advantage of its invoic=
e standard?=0A=
=0A=
> the changes described bring a lot of nice functionality (like being able =
to ask for payment in one currency based on the value of a second one).=0A=
=0A=
I don't understand the value of this. Right now, I use Bitcoin exclusively=
, but goods are services around me are (usually) priced in euro. The merch=
ant will quote a price in euro and their system will ask me to pay in Bitco=
in. My wallet will then display this to me with an equivalent euro value. =
It may differ slightly due to different exchange rate providers being call=
ed, but I am clear on what I need to pay and have an idea of whether it acc=
ords to the listed price of the item.=0A=
If however as you suggest, the merchant were to provide a payment request f=
or =805.00 in BTC, then they'd be reliant on my exchange rate provider to p=
ay them. What if they don't accept what my wallet then says? It's adding =
confusion and complexity where that's neither needed nor wanted. The curre=
nt behaviour is superior to that.=0A=
=0A=
> I don=92t think this is too difficult to define.=0A=
> A well written spec should be able to foresee issues of conflict and desi=
gn around them.=0A=
=0A=
I don't have that level of optimism. You're talking about a very broad arr=
ay of different systems each with their own unique features, metadata, and =
expected two-way communication steps. It feels to me like you're trying to=
shoehorn too much in to one thing and would end up with the worst of all p=
ossible worlds as the result.=0A=
=0A=
I'm sorry for the quite negative-sounding answer here, but as my team is in=
the process of building a wallet, I'm strongly against proposals that - if=
adopted - would add complexity to our work without any obvious benefits to=
us. I feel like Lightning invoices and the current discussions around enh=
ancements and improvements in them are more than sufficient to cover our ne=
eds for the foreseeable future and beyond that I'd prefer solutions built o=
n top of that than something built with complexity that I see as entirely u=
nnecessary.=0A=
=0A=
Regards,=0A=
Ben=0A=
-- =
|