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References: <MtetoOZ--3-2@tutanota.de> <YhAujmus3z69cUl7@petertodd.org>
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From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:35:15 -0500
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To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Cc: Prayank <prayank@tutanota.de>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Stumbling into a contentious soft fork activation
attempt
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> note how ETH has quite high on chain fees for basic transactions,
> because there are so many use-cases where the per-tx value can afford much
> higher fees. That kind of expansion of use-case also arguably harms
Bitcoin as
> a whole by providing more fuel for a future contentious blocksize debate.
i second this argument
ideally, all extensions should be explicit use cases, not generic/implicit
layers that can be exploited for unknown and possibly harmful use cases
also timing is critical for all bitcoin innovation. look at how lightning
ate up fees
to keep bitcoin stable, we can't "scale" too quickly either
i'm a fan of, eventually (timing is critical), a lightning-compatible
mimblewible+dandelion on-chain soft fork can reduce tx size, move us from
l2 to l3, vastly improve privacy, and get more small transactions off-chain.
but it probably shouldn't be released for another 2 years
On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 6:41 PM Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 02:57:30AM +0100, Prayank wrote:
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > > that current lacks compelling use-cases clearly beneficial to all users
> >
> > All the use cases shared in below links look compelling enough to me and
> we can do anything that a programmer could think of using such restrictions:
> >
> > https://utxos.org/uses/
> >
> > https://rubin.io/archive/
>
> Again, what I said was "compelling use-cases _clearly_ beneficial to _all_
> users", not just a small subset. I neither think the use-cases in those
> links
> are clearly compelling in the current form, and they of course, don't
> benefit
> all users. Indeed, the Drivechains use-case arguably *harms* all users, as
> Drivechains is arguably harmful to the security of Bitcoin as a whole.
> Similarly, the various new uses for on-chain transactions mentioned as a
> use-case arguably harms all existing users by competing for scarce
> blockchain
> space - note how ETH has quite high on chain fees for basic transactions,
> because there are so many use-cases where the per-tx value can afford much
> higher fees. That kind of expansion of use-case also arguably harms
> Bitcoin as
> a whole by providing more fuel for a future contentious blocksize debate.
>
> Bitcoin is an almost $1 trillion dollar system. We have to very carefully
> weigh
> the benefits of making core consensus changes to that system against the
> risks.
> Both for each proposal in isolation, as well as the precedent making that
> change sets.
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--0000000000003e228805d87761a4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">> note how ETH has quite high on chain fees for basic t=
ransactions,<br>> because there are so many use-cases where the per-tx v=
alue can afford much<br>> higher fees. That kind of expansion of use-cas=
e also arguably harms Bitcoin as<br>> a whole by providing more fuel for=
a future contentious blocksize debate.<br><br>i second this argument<div><=
br>ideally, all extensions should be explicit use cases, not generic/implic=
it layers that can be exploited for unknown and possibly harmful use cases<=
br><div><br></div><div>also timing is critical for all bitcoin innovation.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0look at how lightning ate up fees</div><div><br></div><div>to =
keep bitcoin stable, we can't "scale" too quickly either</div=
></div><div><br></div><div>i'm a fan of, eventually (timing is critical=
), a lightning-compatible mimblewible+dandelion=C2=A0on-chain soft fork can=
reduce tx size, move us from l2 to l3, vastly improve privacy, and get mor=
e small transactions off-chain.<br></div><div><br></div><div>but it probabl=
y shouldn't be released for another 2 years</div><div><br></div></div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri,=
Feb 18, 2022 at 6:41 PM Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:b=
itcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=
</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 02:57:30AM +0100, Prayank wrote:<br>
> Hi Peter,<br>
> <br>
> > that current lacks compelling use-cases clearly beneficial to all=
users<br>
> <br>
> All the use cases shared in below links look compelling enough to me a=
nd we can do anything that a programmer could think of using such restricti=
ons:<br>
> <br>
>=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://utxos.org/uses/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">https://utxos.org/uses/</a><br>
> <br>
> <a href=3D"https://rubin.io/archive/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://rubin.io/archive/</a><br>
<br>
Again, what I said was "compelling use-cases _clearly_ beneficial to _=
all_<br>
users", not just a small subset. I neither think the use-cases in thos=
e links<br>
are clearly compelling in the current form, and they of course, don't b=
enefit<br>
all users. Indeed, the Drivechains use-case arguably *harms* all users, as<=
br>
Drivechains is arguably harmful to the security of Bitcoin as a whole.<br>
Similarly, the various new uses for on-chain transactions mentioned as a<br=
>
use-case arguably harms all existing users by competing for scarce blockcha=
in<br>
space - note how ETH has quite high on chain fees for basic transactions,<b=
r>
because there are so many use-cases where the per-tx value can afford much<=
br>
higher fees. That kind of expansion of use-case also arguably harms Bitcoin=
as<br>
a whole by providing more fuel for a future contentious blocksize debate.<b=
r>
<br>
Bitcoin is an almost $1 trillion dollar system. We have to very carefully w=
eigh<br>
the benefits of making core consensus changes to that system against the ri=
sks.<br>
Both for each proposal in isolation, as well as the precedent making that<b=
r>
change sets.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://petertodd.org</a> 'peter'[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org"=
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
--0000000000003e228805d87761a4--
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