path: root/c0/6cc59c188210f7a23286634b5164aa396e89a6

Return-Path: <lucasontivero@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACF1C002D
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:00:40 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B9F41685
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:00:40 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 92B9F41685
Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org;
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com
 header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=Up8i7R3g
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
 SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id ljHTJ902kHQY
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:00:39 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 23CB94159D
Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com
 [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136])
 by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23CB94159D
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:00:39 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id
 00721157ae682-3b5d9050e48so192482327b3.2
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:00:39 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=vcGBT5CZJwPjerD1gBG1qO/ysxV1awrwoRL4tk3TPNw=;
 b=Up8i7R3gGmjWVzN0Rg5BEPOgJg5MWB/x340wNxZ4IJ69mlPJSKhogaqJ0xiPqPFSsQ
 hy0SOAN5yX4Hgdq1F10QGRJtcvSz0wSVmsZO+SapFLQDhe1YDJsb5c8Lc/bf8oqcd/d2
 9gfsX3h+qD+AzcJxBlIGnoNOw0uC407HWNhOwXpdF/fG3zLpRxWXcUhUhl0G3X6l22yI
 7QDLCWlPVnw9ECe9ws83Ro4zEwu42OPVBvGt+T71PByd4lMCURtnrcFC+SIhaocjutq6
 AaGFxseFoi76pJJuO8Z0CO6ZdHxbIe2h8nesh8YvblGuGauZeub0zwwvpzcI+YrZJUg9
 +2gg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
 :reply-to;
 bh=vcGBT5CZJwPjerD1gBG1qO/ysxV1awrwoRL4tk3TPNw=;
 b=rY5/t5q7z7fKg/AW9/1eq/+126I1WD5cdEmYO6/3VemfIi2rRGazcX2BBM++4yK+PI
 Z0YNI7Moq3u19NiEZjxUtFw1sgDqEKY72w+5UJxdidLgcdwySXaNUgl/3Sx5XbBhUR5S
 n9SYyHepc2e60wvehfX237fA3edLnbPWncYovt9KJe1H9Jza0dJ4WEU0JgJj7NQPOudu
 O/aUUazbWnAH9G3qLwAnegu7TxDkehADoUWSR1QP+uxqY0X512CmEvhWlFSdw113GVYF
 MIF4Q7A5RqYmG1QReO6xHUwcRQ4gKxeW2TgkN+Rdk/DQg0gqYWTsL1aYNwv87Bnm5TuB
 wdoQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pmveZxFtmsNyEt6btR07Gkp8lqCHzRnt/IfxxWYO/dRw7KpBJzo
 R72bAglWr28V9HdAc9GG7nCsfawgPhrlCAKI3TUJPy7usGCCZw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf4GqsH/vVQ4UuW4UmZ8AfoJoK2KQ9uodhT49QUEKusDnstb9ZYTOd96YlAdEGTavijDJoOTNrVugw7IzieWNzA=
X-Received: by 2002:a81:c86:0:b0:3f0:3355:86f2 with SMTP id
 128-20020a810c86000000b003f0335586f2mr17543732ywm.88.1670940037779; Tue, 13
 Dec 2022 06:00:37 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CACkWPs_F94t9Q8TfyYYGxQANUT78SWFGkTOh6qRwnt=6ct7aig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAQdECAspoRJRz7j1ubAe=Cen==AVF5bm-Q2=0TiKc7NtbU65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACkWPs_4pjTo50=S86KPEznBs0PU7rd30rBGHq2Q5=6n6hYMgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHTn92wH17Z+p5cFOLpzsVUuTf4-nZc7tOjQr+_xjSU5groa0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACkWPs9VawCYt7maiNqzafkFnHTiGJQkXMT4VXQQcG-rE2TTNw@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CACkWPs9VawCYt7maiNqzafkFnHTiGJQkXMT4VXQQcG-rE2TTNw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lucas Ontivero <lucasontivero@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:00:26 -0300
Message-ID: <CALHvQn06ganBSDoCJn32BmRAE9thVfkhJh3HoE+8jrm6imHk3A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000064975205efb60b10"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:01:51 +0000
Cc: John Carvalho <john@synonym.to>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A proposal for Full RBF to not exclude Zero Conf
 use case
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:00:40 -0000

--00000000000064975205efb60b10
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Some wallets like Electrum would be affected by that because they use RBF
to batch transactions so, outputs cannot be exactly the same as before.

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 10:09 AM Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> I dont think there was anything technical with the implementation and as
> far as I can tell this is well developed and ready.
>
> The reasons I can find for not being adopted are listed here -
> https://bitcoincore.org/en/faq/optin_rbf/ under - Why not First-seen-safe
> Replace-by-fee
>
>  Those reasons do not seem pertinent here - given OptinRBF already exists
> as an option and the added benefit of continuing to be able to support
> 0-conf.
>
> ________________________________
>
> Daniel Lipshitz
> GAP600| www.gap600.com
> Phone: +44 113 4900 117
> Skype: daniellipshitz123
> Twitter: @daniellipshitz
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:59 AM John Carvalho <john@synonym.to> wrote:
>
>> Why wasn't this solution put in place back then? Are there problems with
>> the design?
>>
>> While I still think there are unhealthy side-effects of Full-RBF (like
>> more doublespending at unknowing merchants, after years of FSS protection)
>> I think discussion of this FSS-RBF feature is worth considering.
>>
>> --
>> John Carvalho
>> CEO, Synonym.to <http://synonym.to/>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 8:09 AM Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you for bringing that to my attention, apologies for not being
>>> aware of it.
>>>
>>> First-seen-safe replace-by-fee as detailed here
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html
>>> by Peter Todd  seems to be a very suitable option and route
>>> which balances FullRBF while retaining  the significant 0-conf use case.
>>>
>>> This would seem like a good way forward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 6:20 AM Yuval Kogman <nothingmuch@woobling.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

--00000000000064975205efb60b10
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Some wallets like Electrum would be affected by =
that because they use RBF to batch transactions so, outputs cannot be exact=
ly the same as before.<br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 10:09 AM Dani=
el Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfo=
undation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I dont =
think there was anything technical with the implementation and as far as I =
can tell this is well developed and ready.<div><br></div><div>The reasons I=
 can find for not being adopted are listed here -=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://b=
itcoincore.org/en/faq/optin_rbf/" target=3D"_blank">https://bitcoincore.org=
/en/faq/optin_rbf/</a> under - Why not First-seen-safe Replace-by-fee=C2=A0=
</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0Those reasons do not seem pertinent=C2=A0he=
re - given OptinRBF already exists as an option and the added benefit of co=
ntinuing=C2=A0to be able to support 0-conf.</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.8px">________________________________</div><div style=3D"font-siz=
e:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"tahoma, s=
ans-serif">Daniel Lipshitz</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">GAP600|=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
://www.gap600.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</a></font></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif=
">Phone:=C2=A0</font><span style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size=
:12.8px">+44 113 4900 117</span></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Skype: daniellipshitz123</fon=
t></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"taho=
ma, sans-serif">Twitter: @daniellipshitz</font></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:59 AM John Carvalho &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:john@synonym.to" target=3D"_blank">john@synonym.to</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr">Why wasn&#39;t this solution put in=C2=A0place back then? Are there pro=
blems with the design?<div><br></div><div>While I still think there are unh=
ealthy side-effects of Full-RBF (like more doublespending at unknowing=C2=
=A0merchants, after years of FSS protection) I think discussion of this FSS=
-RBF feature is worth considering.</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">--</span><br=
 style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34=
)"><div dir=3D"ltr">John Carvalho</div><div dir=3D"ltr">CEO,=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"http://synonym.to/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">Sy=
nonym.to</a><br><div><font size=3D"1"><br></font></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 8:09 AM Daniel Lipshitz &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:daniel@gap600.com" target=3D"_blank">daniel@gap600.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Thank you for bringing that to my attention, apologies for not bei=
ng aware of it.<div><br></div><div>First-seen-safe replace-by-fee as detail=
ed here=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin=
-dev/2015-May/008248.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html</a>=C2=A0=
 by Peter Todd=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap"> =
</span>seems to be a very suitable option and route which=C2=A0balances Ful=
lRBF while retaining=C2=A0 the significant=C2=A00-conf use case.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>This would seem like a good way forward.</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">________________________________=
</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.=
8px"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at =
6:20 AM Yuval Kogman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nothingmuch@woobling.org" target=
=3D"_blank">nothingmuch@woobling.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundatio=
n.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-Ma=
y/008248.html</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000064975205efb60b10--