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From: James MacWhyte <macwhyte@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2016 00:59:11 +0000
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and Accounts
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> Most people?

I'm talking about services that are built to handle multiple accounts, like
exchanges and payment processors.


> You realize that you need to set up bitcoind to make an
> external request on every reception of funds on any address in the whole
> system.
>
No, you don't. You can write a script that repeatedly asks bitcoind for the
block height, and when it increments you know a new block has been
confirmed. So then you request the transaction list from the latest block,
and check each confirmed transaction against your database of receive/watch
addresses. If there is a match, you record the transaction info in your
database so you can use it as an input later to create a spend transaction.

You could also use something like Bitpay's Insight to make interfacing with
bitcoind easier.


> It can't possibly scale, also we don't have the time to build an account
> system for every bitcoind service. Imagine the loss of time, it's huge and
> grows exponentially with adoption, or rather there is no adoption!
>
What are you trying to build?


> Also external systems are not be trusted, specially not bitgo, did you
> read any news in the last 24 hours?
>
I prefer to wait until all facts are in before I pass judgement. I think
BitGo is an excellent company with a great track record. If used properly,
they are extremely secure. If you are worried about storing funds there
long time, don't--just use them to detect incoming payments and move your
funds elsewhere for long term storage.


> /m
>
> On Wed, 3 Aug 2016, James MacWhyte wrote:
>
> >
> > From what I've seen, most people build their own account system
> separately
> > (including fee management) and just use bitcoind to send, receive, and
> > verify transactions. It's not meant to be a drop-in solution for running
> an
> > entire bitcoin deposit and withdrawal system, it just provides the bare
> > tools required to build your own. If you need a pre-built solution, there
> > are companies that provide those types of services as a platform (BitGo,
> for
> > example).
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, 11:25 Marc Larue via bitcoin-dev
> > <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >       Hi,
> >
> >       I have 2 problems with bitcoind that separately are not a
> >       problem but
> >       together they make the platform unusable for many projects.
> >
> >       If I have accounts I need to make sure the account holders do
> >       not
> >       overcharge their account. To do this I can now use
> >       "createrawtransaction()
> >       + fundrawtransaction() + signrawtransaction()" and then make
> >       sure the
> >       transaction can be paid by an account.
> >
> >       But since you deprecated the accounts and there is no
> >       sendrawtransactionfrom() method; I either have to build my own
> >       account
> >       system (this is no picknick btw, since you need to track all
> >       incoming
> >       funds to all addresses and having an integrated account system
> >       in bitcoind
> >       is 100% necessary to do this effectively).
> >
> >       Or I might be able to go ahead and speculate that you will not
> >       be able to
> >       untangle the account code and hack my bitcoind to have a
> >       sendfrom with a
> >       fixed fee parameter that overrides the size multiplication and I
> >       just do
> >       the math before I send hoping that the transactions go through
> >       (this is
> >       bad but better than having accounts overcharge because they send
> >       dust that
> >       induce high fees).
> >
> >       I understand the privacy problems with using accounts for
> >       off-chain
> >       microstransactions but currently it's the best workable option.
> >
> >       I hope you understand that I'm not trolling here, I have been
> >       mining since
> >       2011 on FPGAs and built bitcoinbankbook.com 2 years ago. When I
> >       descovered
> >       that once transactions will require fees (back then they didn't)
> >       and that
> >       your system is not able to handle fees with accounts, I stopped
> >       developing
> >       everything related to bitcoin.
> >
> >       There are probably 100s if not 1000s of developers in the same
> >       situation.
> >
> >       You can't just deprecate accounts like that because nobody likes
> >       the code.
> >       Without accounts bitcoind is only a person-to-person manual
> >       client.
> >
> >       To build many-to-many automatic "organisations" on top of
> >       bitcoind you
> >       need accounts and you need fees that are predictable.
> >
> >       Kind Regards,
> >
> >       /marc
> >       _______________________________________________
> >       bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >       bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >       https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >
> >
> >
>

--001a1149d1dede5e140539347515
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">Most people?</blockquote><div>I&#39;m talking ab=
out services that are built to handle multiple accounts, like exchanges and=
 payment processors.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Y=
ou realize that you need to set up bitcoind to make an<br>
external request on every reception of funds on any address in the whole<br=
>
system.<br></blockquote><div>No, you don&#39;t. You can write a script that=
 repeatedly asks bitcoind for the block height, and when it increments you =
know a new block has been confirmed. So then you request the transaction li=
st from the latest block, and check each confirmed transaction against your=
 database of receive/watch addresses. If there is a match, you record the t=
ransaction info in your database so you can use it as an input later to cre=
ate a spend transaction.<br><br>You could also use something like Bitpay&#3=
9;s Insight to make interfacing with bitcoind easier.</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
It can&#39;t possibly scale, also we don&#39;t have the time to build an ac=
count<br>
system for every bitcoind service. Imagine the loss of time, it&#39;s huge =
and<br>
grows exponentially with adoption, or rather there is no adoption!<br></blo=
ckquote><div>What are you trying to build?=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Also external systems are not be trusted, specially not bitgo, did you<br>
read any news in the last 24 hours?<br></blockquote><div>I prefer to wait u=
ntil all facts are in before I pass judgement. I think BitGo is an excellen=
t company with a great track record. If used properly, they are extremely s=
ecure. If you are worried about storing funds there long time, don&#39;t--j=
ust use them to detect incoming payments and move your funds elsewhere for =
long term storage.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
/m<br>
<br>
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016, James MacWhyte wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From what I&#39;ve seen, most people build their own account system se=
parately<br>
&gt; (including fee management) and just use bitcoind to send, receive, and=
<br>
&gt; verify transactions. It&#39;s not meant to be a drop-in solution for r=
unning an<br>
&gt; entire bitcoin deposit and withdrawal system, it just provides the bar=
e<br>
&gt; tools required to build your own. If you need a pre-built solution, th=
ere<br>
&gt; are companies that provide those types of services as a platform (BitG=
o, for<br>
&gt; example).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, Aug 3, 2016, 11:25 Marc Larue via bitcoin-dev<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D=
"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have 2 problems with bitcoind that separat=
ely are not a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0problem but<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0together they make the platform unusable for=
 many projects.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If I have accounts I need to make sure the a=
ccount holders do<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0overcharge their account. To do this I can n=
ow use<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;createrawtransaction()<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+ fundrawtransaction() + signrawtransaction(=
)&quot; and then make<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sure the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transaction can be paid by an account.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But since you deprecated the accounts and th=
ere is no<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sendrawtransactionfrom() method; I either ha=
ve to build my own<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0account<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0system (this is no picknick btw, since you n=
eed to track all<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0incoming<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0funds to all addresses and having an integra=
ted account system<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in bitcoind<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is 100% necessary to do this effectively).<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Or I might be able to go ahead and speculate=
 that you will not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be able to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0untangle the account code and hack my bitcoi=
nd to have a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sendfrom with a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fixed fee parameter that overrides the size =
multiplication and I<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0just do<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the math before I send hoping that the trans=
actions go through<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(this is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bad but better than having accounts overchar=
ge because they send<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dust that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0induce high fees).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I understand the privacy problems with using=
 accounts for<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0off-chain<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0microstransactions but currently it&#39;s th=
e best workable option.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I hope you understand that I&#39;m not troll=
ing here, I have been<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mining since<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02011 on FPGAs and built <a href=3D"http://bi=
tcoinbankbook.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoinbankbook.com=
</a> 2 years ago. When I<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0descovered<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that once transactions will require fees (ba=
ck then they didn&#39;t)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0your system is not able to handle fees with =
accounts, I stopped<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0developing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0everything related to bitcoin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There are probably 100s if not 1000s of deve=
lopers in the same<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0situation.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0You can&#39;t just deprecate accounts like t=
hat because nobody likes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the code.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Without accounts bitcoind is only a person-t=
o-person manual<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0client.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To build many-to-many automatic &quot;organi=
sations&quot; on top of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bitcoind you<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0need accounts and you need fees that are pre=
dictable.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kind Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/marc<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____________________________________________=
___<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfou=
ndation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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