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From: Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com>
To: Pieter Wuille <bitcoin-dev@wuille.net>
CC: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>, Bitcoin Development Mailing List
	<bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position
Thread-Topic: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate
 Position
Thread-Index: AQHbykJbZQJfwvE0qEqhK+BEG7Guo7PdDBbEgAAd7ACAACZlFw==
Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 17:19:26 +0000
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None of my comments insinuate that deals would not be public or that all us=
ers and all miners would not have access to this service.  The product/serv=
ice I am working on would be public and anyone could participate.  A world =
in which there is no ability for users to have some level of certainty abou=
t access to future blockspace and the cost of that blockspace is not one th=
at, imo, can scale to the levels that I believe we all hope to attain.  Blo=
ckspace can/should act like any other commodity (think corn or soybeans) in=
 which sellers (miners) mitigate risk and lock in long term revenue streams=
, and consumers (users) can guarantee their future access and the cost of t=
hat access.  Blockspace acting as purely a real-time, spot market is not on=
e that I feel is capable of scaling to global levels.  I am not disputing t=
his should be done in public not private.  All of that said, my main point =
right now is that about keeping configurability and flexibility for templat=
e creators (and certainly node-runners too.)

From: Pieter Wuille <bitcoin-dev@wuille.net>
Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 10:47=E2=80=AFAM
To: Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com>
Cc: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>, Bitcoin Development Mailing List <=
bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate=
 Position
You don't often get email from bitcoin-dev@wuille.net. Learn why this is im=
portant<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
Hi Bob,

On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 9:44 AM, Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootm=
ining.com> wrote:

On your other point regarding non-standard, I think you may have misunderst=
ood my point.  For me, the issue in the future in not about services for no=
n-standard transactions but about giving users a mechanism whereby they can=
 get assurances about future access and cost of block space.  For instance,=
 a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) might know that they wil=
l have a lot of demand for block space in October because they are going to=
 be doing a major marketing campaign then.  The campaign would result in a =
lot of UTXO consolidation and self-custody.  The problem for them is that s=
itting here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for bloc=
k space and what the cost of that block space will be.  By getting the righ=
t arrangement with a miner (or coalition of miners), they will be able to g=
et guarantees of access to October block space and lock in cost for that sp=
ace.   (While this exact scenario is just an example, I can say that I am a=
lready working on some similar things.)

I think this is a rather remarkable response, and it undermines any opinion=
 you might have about transaction relay policy.

To me, the primary reason why I feel divergence between relay policy and th=
e set of transactions actually being mined is worrisome is because it incen=
tivizes private transaction submission to miners. If that becomes commonpla=
ce enough that a substantial portion of income is due to it, it may result =
in an inability for new small miners to enter the mining landscape in a per=
missionless manner, as they will not be competitive without income from pri=
vate submission.

The presence of non-publicly-enforced business deals about future block spa=
ce is a manifestation of the exact same danger, but arguably more imminent.=
 I recognize the use case, but the demand for it, or rather the feasibility=
 of obtaining it, sounds to me like an serious potential threat to Bitcoin.=
 And I don't know what can really be done about it, except more decentraliz=
ed mining.

Sorry to say, but if your point is "we don't care about the public network'=
s relay policy, because we'll just mine what our big direct customers want =
anyway", then you are quite literally what we need to prevent.

--
Pieter

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">None of my comments=
 insinuate that deals would not be public or that all users and all miners =
would not have access to this service.&nbsp; The product/service I am worki=
ng on would be public and anyone could participate.&nbsp;
 A world in which there is no ability for users to have some level of certa=
inty about access to future blockspace and the cost of that blockspace is n=
ot one that, imo, can scale to the levels that I believe we all hope to att=
ain.&nbsp; Blockspace can/should act
 like any other commodity (think corn or soybeans) in which sellers (miners=
) mitigate risk and lock in long term revenue streams, and consumers (users=
) can guarantee their future access and the cost of that access.&nbsp; Bloc=
kspace acting as purely a real-time,
 spot market is not one that I feel is capable of scaling to global levels.=
&nbsp; I am not disputing this should be done in public not private.&nbsp; =
All of that said, my main point right now is that about keeping configurabi=
lity and flexibility for template creators
 (and certainly node-runners too.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Pieter Wuille &lt;b=
itcoin-dev@wuille.net&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 10:47</span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=E2=80=AF</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Bob Burnett &lt;bob.burnett@barefootmining.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Sjors Provoost &lt;sjors@sprovoost.nl&gt;, Bitcoin Development M=
ailing List &lt;bitcoindev@googlegroups.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's A=
dvocate Position<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Bob,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 9:44 AM, Bob Burnett =
&lt;bob.burnett@barefootmining.com&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif">On your other point regarding non-standard, I think you may have mi=
sunderstood my point.&nbsp; For me, the issue in the
 future in not about services for non-standard transactions but about givin=
g users a mechanism whereby they can get assurances about future access and=
 cost of block space.&nbsp; For instance, a user of block space (ex. Swan, =
River, Coinbase) might know that they
 will have a lot of demand for block space in October because they are goin=
g to be doing a major marketing campaign then.&nbsp; The campaign would res=
ult in a lot of UTXO consolidation and self-custody.&nbsp; The problem for =
them is that sitting here in May they have
 no idea how much demand there will be for block space and what the cost of=
 that block space will be.&nbsp; By getting the right arrangement with a mi=
ner (or coalition of miners), they will be able to get guarantees of access=
 to October block space and lock in cost
 for that space.&nbsp;&nbsp; (While this exact scenario is just an example,=
 I can say that I am already working on some similar things.)</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif">I think this is a rather remarkable response, and it undermines any=
 opinion you might have about transaction relay
 policy.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot=
;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif">To me, the primary reason why I feel divergence between relay polic=
y and the set of transactions actually being mined
 is worrisome is because it incentivizes private transaction submission to =
miners. If that becomes commonplace enough that a substantial portion of in=
come is due to it, it may result in an inability for new small miners to en=
ter the mining landscape in a permissionless
 manner, as they will not be competitive without income from private submis=
sion.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,s=
ans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif">The presence of non-publicly-enforced business deals about future b=
lock space is a manifestation of the exact same
 danger, but arguably more imminent. I recognize the use case, but the dema=
nd for it, or rather the feasibility of obtaining it, sounds to me like an =
serious potential threat to Bitcoin. And I don't know what can really be do=
ne about it, except more decentralized
 mining.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif">Sorry to say, but if your point is &quot;we don't care about the pu=
blic network's relay policy, because we'll just mine
 what our big direct customers want anyway&quot;, then you are quite litera=
lly what we need to prevent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif">--
<br>
Pieter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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