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From: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>
To: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail.com>, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
 <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>, shymaa arafat
 <shymaa.arafat@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Removing the Dust Limit
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Cc: lightning-dev <lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Removing the Dust Limit
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Good Afternoon,

It is worth reconsidering the value accumulated in dust. Speculatively, whe=
n the value of 1 BTC reaches US$ 1,000,000.00 then the value of one satoshi=
 will be US$ 0.01 so, for 1 satoshi to be of any substantial value the valu=
e of Bitcoin will have to rise substantially higher. I ask what then should=
 the value of fees be? Is there not a future case foreseeable at least in c=
onsideration of Bitcoin's comparison with Gold that the value may be so hig=
h as to allow that 1 satoshi may cover the mining cost of any transaction d=
espite the reduction in sat/B for including the additional transaction. Is =
it not that we can foresee the dust has value and that the wealthy may have=
 in fact millions of dust transactions that are inheritable, though I hesit=
ate to make my business collecting them I may set up a website. The current=
 reason for excluding dust is because it costs more to the transaction to a=
dd the dust than its value but that does not say that will always be the ca=
se.

KING JAMES HRMH
Great British Empire

Regards,
The Australian
LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
MR. Damian A. James Williamson
Wills

et al.


Willtech
www.willtech.com.au
www.go-overt.com
and other projects

earn.com/willtech
linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson


m. 0487135719
f. +61261470192


This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this emai=
l if misdelivered.
----
________________________________
From: bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on behalf=
 of shymaa arafat via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Sent: Friday, 27 August 2021 7:07 PM
To: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail.com>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bit=
coin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Cc: lightning-dev <lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Removing the Dust Limit

Allow me to ask:

-Untill you find a mitigation that consolidate all dust UTXOS, why don't yo=
u separate them and all probably Unspendable UTXOS in a different partition=
?
-I'm talking at the real UTXO storage level (to be kept in secondary storag=
e), and at the Merkleization level in any accumulator design Utreexo or wha=
t so ever(putting them in one or two subtree/forest with hardly changing ro=
ots according to the categorization will reduce the proof size, even if sli=
ghtly)
-This will also help things like Bloom filters, assume UTXOs,...etc when ab=
out 10% with almost zero probability are trimmed from the pool you are with=
drawing from.
.
-The paper I mentioned earlier says in Feb 2018, there was about 2.4m UTXOS=
 less than 1000 Satoshi, of which ~824,892 holds exactly 1 Satoshi
-I don't think any of those were spent since that time, in fact there could=
 be a possibility that the numbers may have increased
-As the last previous reply mentioned you have to consider the long run eff=
ect on the UTXO set forever, this is a straight forward improvement that co=
mes with almost no effort
.
Ps.
-If there is something wrong, something I missed in this idea please explai=
n it to me
-Or do you find the improvement itself a "dust" that doesn't worth the effo=
rt???
.
Regards & thank you all for your time in reading & replying
Shymaa M. Arafat
On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 00:06 Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:

One interesting thing I thought of: the cost of maintenance of the dust cre=
ates a (very) small incentive to mine transactions that *use* dust outputs =
with a slightly lower fee that contain dust, in order to reduce the future =
maintenance cost for themselves. However, the rational discount would likel=
y be vanishingly small.  It would be interesting to add something to the co=
nsensus rules to decrease the vbytes for a transaction that consumes dust o=
utputs such that the value of removing them from the system (saving the fut=
ure cost of maintenance) is approximately equal to the amount that the fee =
could be made lower for such transactions. Even measuring this as a value o=
ver the whole (future) bitcoin network, I'm not sure how to evaluate the ma=
gnitude of this future cost.





On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:12 PM ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
Good morning Jeremy,

> one interesting point that came up at the bitdevs in austin today that fa=
vors remove that i believe is new to this discussion (it was new to me):
>
> the argument can be reduced to:
>
> - dust limit is a per-node relay policy.
> - it is rational for miners to mine dust outputs given their cost of main=
tenance (storing the output potentially forever) is lower than their immedi=
ate reward in fees.
> - if txn relaying nodes censor something that a miner would mine, users w=
ill seek a private/direct relay to the miner and vice versa.
> - if direct relay to miner becomes popular, it is both bad for privacy an=
d decentralization.
> - therefore the dust limit, should there be demand to create dust at prev=
ailing mempool feerates, causes an incentive to increase network centraliza=
tion (immediately)
>
> the tradeoff is if a short term immediate incentive to promote network ce=
ntralization is better or worse than a long term node operator overhead.

Against the above, we should note that in the Lightning spec, when an outpu=
t *would have been* created that is less than the dust limit, the output is=
 instead put into fees.
https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/03-transactio=
ns.md#trimmed-outputs

Thus, the existence of a dust limit encourages L2 protocols to have similar=
 rules, where outputs below the dust limit are just given over as fees to m=
iners, so the existence of a dust limit might very well be incentivize-comp=
atible for miners, regardless of centralization effects or not.


Regards,
ZmnSCPxj
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat=
ion.org>
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat=
ion.org>
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
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Good Afternoon,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
It is worth reconsidering the value accumulated in dust. Speculatively, whe=
n the value of 1 BTC reaches US$ 1,000,000.00 then the value of one satoshi=
 will be US$ 0.01 so, for 1 satoshi to be of any substantial value the valu=
e of Bitcoin will have to rise substantially
 higher. I ask what then should the value of fees be? Is there not a future=
 case foreseeable at least in consideration of Bitcoin's comparison with Go=
ld that the value may be so high as to allow that 1 satoshi may cover the m=
ining cost of any transaction despite
 the reduction in sat/B for including the additional transaction. Is it not=
 that we can foresee the dust has value and that the wealthy may have in fa=
ct millions of dust transactions that are inheritable, though I hesitate to=
 make my business collecting them
 I may set up a website. The current reason for excluding dust is because i=
t costs more to the transaction to add the dust than its value but that doe=
s not say that will always be the case.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12p=
t">KING JAMES HRMH</span></span><br>
<span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12p=
t">Great British Empire</span></span><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Regards,
<div>The Australian</div>
<div>LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (&amp; HMRH)</div>
<div>of Hougun Manor &amp; Glencoe &amp; British Empire</div>
<div>MR. Damian A. James Williamson</div>
<div>Wills</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>et al.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Willtech</div>
<div>www.willtech.com.au</div>
<div>www.go-overt.com</div>
<div>and other projects</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>earn.com/willtech</div>
<div>linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>m. 0487135719</div>
<div>f. +61261470192</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this=
 email if misdelivered.</div>
----<br>
</div>
<div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> bitcoin-dev &lt;bit=
coin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org&gt; on behalf of shymaa arafat v=
ia bitcoin-dev &lt;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 27 August 2021 7:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Billy Tetrud &lt;billy.tetrud@gmail.com&gt;; Bitcoin Protocol Di=
scussion &lt;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> lightning-dev &lt;lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&gt;<br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Removing the Dust Limit</=
font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto"></div>
Allow me to ask:
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto">-Untill you find a mitigation that consolidate all dust U=
TXOS, why don't you separate them and all probably Unspendable UTXOS in a d=
ifferent partition?</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">-I'm talking at the real UTXO storage level (to be kept i=
n secondary storage), and at the Merkleization level in any accumulator des=
ign Utreexo or what so ever(putting them in one or two subtree/forest with =
hardly changing roots according to
 the categorization will reduce the proof size, even if slightly)</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">-This will also help things like Bloom filters, assume UT=
XOs,...etc when about 10% with almost zero probability are trimmed from the=
 pool you are withdrawing from.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">-The paper I mentioned earlier says in Feb 2018, there wa=
s about 2.4m UTXOS less than 1000 Satoshi, of which ~824,892 holds exactly =
1 Satoshi</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">-I don't think any of those were spent since that time, i=
n fact there could be a possibility that the numbers may have increased</di=
v>
<div dir=3D"auto">-As the last previous reply mentioned you have to conside=
r the long run effect on the UTXO set forever, this is a straight forward i=
mprovement that comes with almost no effort</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Ps.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">-If there is something wrong, something I missed in this =
idea please explain it to me</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">-Or do you find the improvement itself a &quot;dust&quot;=
 that doesn't worth the effort???</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Regards &amp; thank you all for your time in reading &amp=
; replying</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Shymaa M. Arafat</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 00:06 Billy T=
etrud via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.l=
inuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left=
:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f">One interesting thing I thought of: the cost of maintenance of the dust =
creates a (very) small incentive to mine transactions that *use* dust outpu=
ts with a slightly lower fee that
 contain dust, in order to reduce the future maintenance cost for themselve=
s. However, the rational discount would likely be vanishingly small.&nbsp; =
It would be interesting to add something to the consensus rules to decrease=
 the vbytes for a transaction that consumes
 dust outputs such that the value of removing them from the system (saving =
the future cost of maintenance) is approximately equal to the amount that t=
he fee could be made lower for such transactions. Even measuring this as a =
value over the whole (future) bitcoin
 network, I'm not sure how to evaluate the magnitude of this future cost. <=
/span>
<br>
</div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f">&nbsp;</span><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:12 PM Zmn=
SCPxj via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-=
dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
Good morning Jeremy,<br>
<br>
&gt; one interesting point that came up at the bitdevs in austin today that=
 favors remove that i believe is new to this discussion (it was new to me):=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; the argument can be reduced to:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - dust limit is a per-node relay policy.<br>
&gt; - it is rational for miners to mine dust outputs given their cost of m=
aintenance&nbsp;(storing the output potentially forever) is lower than thei=
r immediate reward in fees.<br>
&gt; - if txn relaying nodes censor something that a miner would mine, user=
s will seek a private/direct relay to the miner and vice versa.<br>
&gt; - if direct relay to miner becomes popular, it is both bad for privacy=
 and decentralization.<br>
&gt; - therefore the dust limit, should there be demand to create dust at p=
revailing mempool feerates, causes an incentive to increase network central=
ization&nbsp;(immediately)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; the tradeoff is if a short term immediate incentive to promote network=
 centralization is better or worse than a long term node operator overhead.=
<br>
<br>
Against the above, we should note that in the Lightning spec, when an outpu=
t *would have been* created that is less than the dust limit, the output is=
 instead put into fees.<br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/03=
-transactions.md#trimmed-outputs" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-=
rfc/blob/master/03-transactions.md#trimmed-outputs</a><br>
<br>
Thus, the existence of a dust limit encourages L2 protocols to have similar=
 rules, where outputs below the dust limit are just given over as fees to m=
iners, so the existence of a dust limit might very well be incentivize-comp=
atible for miners, regardless of
 centralization effects or not.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
ZmnSCPxj<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https=
://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https=
://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote>
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