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From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZ2UgVGltw7Nu?= <jtimon@jtimon.cc>
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:22:41 +0100
Message-ID: <CABm2gDr6QyVUPFODRBBvWY-sukX+k9-kLKpjPnwwaQqejQL88w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable
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Who do you mean by "the non technical folks"?
You don't include alicexbt or yourself as a "technical folk", do you?


On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 8:38 AM Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Wholeheartedly agree with you alicexbt. There are no technical issues tha=
t
> have been shown that I'm aware of. Once the non-technical folks have time
> to discuss it and realize that, I'm hopeful things will move forward.
> Perhaps we can learn from this and figure out how to better catch the
> attention of the larger bitcoin community  for important changes without
> alarming them.
>
> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 2:48 AM alicexbt via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jorge,
>>
>>
>> Misinformation is false or inaccurate information, especially that which
>> is deliberately intended to deceive. A combination of 'misleading' and
>> 'information'. Here are a few examples and I am sure I missed a lot of
>> others but its difficult for me to keep a track of everything:
>>
>>
>> 1) Sapio is open source and everything mentioned in tweet is false:
>> https://web.archive.org/web/20220503050140/https://twitter.com/coinableS=
/status/1521354192434073602
>>
>> 2) Personal attacks on author of BIP 119 with false information:
>> https://nitter.net/s3cp256k1/status/1521238634111770624
>>
>> 3) Andreas Antonopoulos shared false things about CTV and explained by
>> Ryan in this email:
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-May/020414.=
html
>>
>> 4) Misleading things shared in these emails by Michael Folkson:
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019=
728.html
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/02023=
5.html
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/02028=
6.html
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/02034=
3.html
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/02038=
6.html
>>
>> 5) Peter Todd and Zac shared misleading things about BIP 119, bitcoin an=
d
>> L2. I replied in this email:
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/02032=
2.html
>>
>> 6) Social media influencers like Peter McCormack tweeted they don't
>> understand BIP 119 but its an attack (this was even retweeted by develop=
ers
>> like Peter Todd):
>> https://nitter.net/PeterMcCormack/status/1521253840963653632
>>
>> 7) Some misconceptions about BIP 119 cleared by Bitcoin Magazine:
>> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/what-is-bip-119-bitcoin-controvers=
y-explained
>>
>> 8) There were lies and misinformation about BIP 119 on social media
>> according to this Bitcoin Magazine article:
>> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/analyzing-bip119-and-the-controver=
sy-surrounding-it
>>
>> 9) John Carvalho tweeting false things:
>>
>>     https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1468599535538745359
>>
>>     https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1522652884218822658
>>
>>     https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1442554615967354880
>>
>>     https://nitter.net/search?q=3DMIT%20(from%3ABitcoinErrorLog)
>>
>> 10) Greg Maxwell responding to misinformation related to BIP 119 but
>> adding false things in the comments:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/uim560/bip_119/i7dhfpb/
>>
>>
>> I am not surprised by your email but it would be better if the people wh=
o
>> are interested in reviewing BIP 119 could raise the bar and not share
>> misleading information.
>>
>>
>> /dev/fd0
>>
>>
>> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>> ------- Original Message -------
>> On Sunday, June 5th, 2022 at 12:12 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <jtimon@jtimon.c=
c>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > "Some people say CTV is contentious, but they're spreading
>> misinformation"? Really? Seriously?Come on, guys, we can do better than
>> nina jankovich and the "fact checkers".
>> > Please, rise the bar.
>> > On Fri, Jun 3, 2022, 19:44 alicexbt via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin
>> > >
>> > > Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork=
.
>> CTV is the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart
>> from the technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things:
>> > >
>> > > - Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in
>> market.
>> > > - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.
>> > > - Better tooling could be available for application developers.
>> > > - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.
>> > > - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges
>> and coinjoin.
>> > > - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont nee=
d
>> to convince a few people for grants.
>> > >
>> > > **Why covenants are not contentious?**
>> > >
>> > > Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread
>> misinformation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media =
but
>> there are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant
>> proposals in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded
>> approach.
>> > >
>> > > All the developers that participated in the discussion are either
>> okay with CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general.
>> > >
>> > > **How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?**
>> > >
>> > > I don't think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that
>> everyone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in
>> Bitcoin. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and sha=
re
>> honest opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits.
>> > >
>> > > I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won't mind
>> anything else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented=
 in
>> Bitcoin before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers t=
o
>> build interesting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters
>> also believe there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing chan=
ges
>> considering each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not=
 a
>> rushed soft fork, less people followed the research and it was not
>> mentioned on social media repeatedly by the respected developers like ot=
her
>> soft forks.
>> > >
>> > > /dev/fd0
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

--000000000000e17ce405e0ec3f7f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Who do you mean by &quot;the non technical folks&quot=
;?<br></div><div>You don&#39;t include alicexbt or yourself as a &quot;tech=
nical folk&quot;, do you?</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 8:38 A=
M Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linu=
xfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Whol=
eheartedly agree with you alicexbt. There are no technical issues that have=
 been shown that I&#39;m aware of. Once the non-technical folks have time t=
o discuss it and realize that, I&#39;m hopeful things will move forward. Pe=
rhaps we can learn from this and figure out how to better catch the attenti=
on of the larger bitcoin community=C2=A0 for important=C2=A0changes without=
 alarming them.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 2:48 AM alicexbt via bitcoin-de=
v &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Jorge,<br>
<br>
<br>
Misinformation is false or inaccurate information, especially that which is=
 deliberately intended to deceive. A combination of &#39;misleading&#39; an=
d &#39;information&#39;. Here are a few examples and I am sure I missed a l=
ot of others but its difficult for me to keep a track of everything:<br>
<br>
<br>
1) Sapio is open source and everything mentioned in tweet is false: <a href=
=3D"https://web.archive.org/web/20220503050140/https://twitter.com/coinable=
S/status/1521354192434073602" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
web.archive.org/web/20220503050140/https://twitter.com/coinableS/status/152=
1354192434073602</a><br>
<br>
2) Personal attacks on author of BIP 119 with false information: <a href=3D=
"https://nitter.net/s3cp256k1/status/1521238634111770624" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://nitter.net/s3cp256k1/status/1521238634111770624=
</a><br>
<br>
3) Andreas Antonopoulos shared false things about CTV and explained by Ryan=
 in this email: <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitc=
oin-dev/2022-May/020414.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-May/020414.html</a><br=
>
<br>
4) Misleading things shared in these emails by Michael Folkson:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoi=
n-dev/2022-January/019728.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019728.html<=
/a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoi=
n-dev/2022-April/020235.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020235.html</a><=
br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoi=
n-dev/2022-April/020286.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020286.html</a><=
br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoi=
n-dev/2022-April/020343.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020343.html</a><=
br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoi=
n-dev/2022-April/020386.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020386.html</a><=
br>
<br>
5) Peter Todd and Zac shared misleading things about BIP 119, bitcoin and L=
2. I replied in this email: <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pi=
permail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020322.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/02=
0322.html</a><br>
<br>
6) Social media influencers like Peter McCormack tweeted they don&#39;t und=
erstand BIP 119 but its an attack (this was even retweeted by developers li=
ke Peter Todd): <a href=3D"https://nitter.net/PeterMcCormack/status/1521253=
840963653632" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://nitter.net/Peter=
McCormack/status/1521253840963653632</a><br>
<br>
7) Some misconceptions about BIP 119 cleared by Bitcoin Magazine: <a href=
=3D"https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/what-is-bip-119-bitcoin-controver=
sy-explained" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://bitcoinmagazine.=
com/technical/what-is-bip-119-bitcoin-controversy-explained</a><br>
<br>
8) There were lies and misinformation about BIP 119 on social media accordi=
ng to this Bitcoin Magazine article: <a href=3D"https://bitcoinmagazine.com=
/technical/analyzing-bip119-and-the-controversy-surrounding-it" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/analyzing-b=
ip119-and-the-controversy-surrounding-it</a><br>
<br>
9) John Carvalho tweeting false things:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/14685995=
35538745359" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://nitter.net/Bitcoi=
nErrorLog/status/1468599535538745359</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/15226528=
84218822658" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://nitter.net/Bitcoi=
nErrorLog/status/1522652884218822658</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/14425546=
15967354880" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://nitter.net/Bitcoi=
nErrorLog/status/1442554615967354880</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://nitter.net/search?q=3DMIT%20(from%3ABitcoi=
nErrorLog)" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://nitter.net/search?=
q=3DMIT%20(from%3ABitcoinErrorLog)</a><br>
<br>
10) Greg Maxwell responding to misinformation related to BIP 119 but adding=
 false things in the comments: <a href=3D"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/=
comments/uim560/bip_119/i7dhfpb/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/uim560/bip_119/i7dhfpb/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
I am not surprised by your email but it would be better if the people who a=
re interested in reviewing BIP 119 could raise the bar and not share mislea=
ding information.<br>
<br>
<br>
/dev/fd0<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent with Proton Mail secure email.<br>
------- Original Message -------<br>
On Sunday, June 5th, 2022 at 12:12 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:jtimon@jtimon.cc" target=3D"_blank">jtimon@jtimon.cc</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &quot;Some people say CTV is contentious, but they&#39;re spreading mi=
sinformation&quot;? Really? Seriously?Come on, guys, we can do better than =
nina jankovich and the &quot;fact checkers&quot;.<br>
&gt; Please, rise the bar.<br>
&gt; On Fri, Jun 3, 2022, 19:44 alicexbt via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft f=
ork. CTV is the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apa=
rt from the technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things:<br=
>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; - Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in m=
arket.<br>
&gt; &gt; - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.<br>
&gt; &gt; - Better tooling could be available for application developers.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countrie=
s.<br>
&gt; &gt; - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchange=
s and coinjoin.<br>
&gt; &gt; - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont =
need to convince a few people for grants.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; **Why covenants are not contentious?**<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spr=
ead misinformation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media=
 but there are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covena=
nt proposals in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded=
 approach.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; All the developers that participated in the discussion are either=
 okay with CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; **How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?**<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I don&#39;t think we should wait for years anticipating a proposa=
l that everyone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are har=
d in Bitcoin. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and s=
hare honest opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won&#39;t mi=
nd anything else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented=
 in Bitcoin before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers =
to build interesting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters=
 also believe there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing change=
s considering each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not =
a rushed soft fork, less people followed the research and it was not mentio=
ned on social media repeatedly by the respected developers like other soft =
forks.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; /dev/fd0<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent with Proton Mail secure email.<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=
=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bit=
coin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundatio=
n.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
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</blockquote></div>
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</blockquote></div>

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