1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
|
Return-Path: <eric@voskuil.org>
Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CDEC002D
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 7 Jul 2022 16:24:31 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B9B6128A
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 7 Jul 2022 16:24:31 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org 13B9B6128A
Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com
header.i=@voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=20210112 header.b=hwZRGrv+
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001,
SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id I_nqSUdZZBGO
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 7 Jul 2022 16:24:29 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org BEA4061289
Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com
[IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429])
by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEA4061289
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 7 Jul 2022 16:24:29 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id y141so20396915pfb.7
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 07 Jul 2022 09:24:29 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112;
h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id
:references:cc:in-reply-to:to;
bh=EGA/Rmz4Ec7bMlQjPmjQf/Wet14me/rrnQy5ixN5p6M=;
b=hwZRGrv+4h7TZpFmGepwTq60zhTvHyBWLHMVrI+4mWlkjdMcthiNs4K0f9dMcUVTrI
vnW+IuU+orimZYQrqmLxAhm0CGspkLPuFqca2UW76PPAtYLIPNVFAZ51j/xgrqaspczM
o++iFtAeUqd8yuFfYe/8g86fuRtVUXUoRmtdgHsJxTJUKvHfBPzZ0qfLmw/eQTqAXU/w
tJFJZ53F2TxS7F8JKW9UqPBCKJcj84NKg4YUAqja2e2r7440cbrPC3jHPslgW3x+My6b
aEXCLm7wmSZLC2KyoUezcWnPrbm6loQ228+WyHbkVLHUhrQY0zJadgTMUjlnPkWCY1Ho
jk7g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version
:subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to;
bh=EGA/Rmz4Ec7bMlQjPmjQf/Wet14me/rrnQy5ixN5p6M=;
b=Pfl0WOQV2aO6fJ0Dhe1rrMZXCBCEkrwyzCOGWV8Urb5ssvCsH12KuRFI+bOwxA4DHU
o58vWsnSjIVoy3xkYXuH1aJoVYROyUL0VkxZeLzt/MO5MxmWPq90gJt8nk16/y6krhAz
4sMN84ei1dWRK87E68KRM3KmKaov8PwPyYp/CS0wpxxDCw+0sY8VJBO0LM0jwMjZPsaS
FAGZ/N3NFdIjWxBVV/GdpA7DGwNXxy0VAYzFvCUUiPvBY4Dfk9u1e4SJXIHWFhVgNTK1
RRj72j0ehLSzCxJhZNxZfnL1O+tEdfp4ITR7yLnHvXEXyFVRB8HKZ2/ldER5UKK7f4s9
adlQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora8nDH1O7TbfZwT+OnMR6DLZHdTxTXTjjewkeixrPlHh+w4NK+8E
2em7jBZ6ytSJkQS2lx6CJ8UWXQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1uzhoyLlZEfwBQu6Vz6JBBIWyAs5bVaBKs3rqYOsaJ1sLkYXsXd4iD1lkdpfZ+RUpiXm2gv9w==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4d8a:b0:1ef:da53:e126 with SMTP id
oj10-20020a17090b4d8a00b001efda53e126mr3191095pjb.116.1657211068965;
Thu, 07 Jul 2022 09:24:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:380:801f:6202:f47e:c7ca:fad6:7d1])
by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id
bk21-20020aa78315000000b005254e44b748sm26896236pfb.84.2022.07.07.09.24.27
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
Thu, 07 Jul 2022 09:24:27 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary=Apple-Mail-76221C1E-812B-468B-B34D-D0497FB044ED
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 09:24:26 -0700
Message-Id: <F6CAB95E-2EDD-42E5-8C80-1E3818D51574@voskuil.org>
References: <Ysbp2QclWW7NzfrS@petertodd.org>
In-Reply-To: <Ysbp2QclWW7NzfrS@petertodd.org>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19F77)
Cc: John Carvalho <john@synonym.to>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2022 16:24:31 -0000
--Apple-Mail-76221C1E-812B-468B-B34D-D0497FB044ED
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> On Jul 7, 2022, at 07:13, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, Jul 07, 2022 at 02:24:39PM +0100, John Carvalho via bitco=
in-dev wrote:
>> Billy,
>>=20
>> Proof of work and the difficulty adjustment function solve literally
>> everything you are talking about already.
>=20
> Unfortunately you are quite wrong: the difficulty adjustment function mere=
ly
> adjusts for changes in the amount of observable, non-51%-attacking, hashin=
g
> power. In the event of a chain split, the difficulty adjustment function d=
oes
> nothing; against a 51% attacker, the difficulty adjustment does nothing;
> against a censor, the difficulty adjustment does nothing.
Consider falling hash rate due to a perpetual 51% attack. Difficulty falls, p=
ossibly to min difficulty if all non-censors stop mining and with all censor=
s collaborating (one miner). Yet as difficulty falls, so does the cost of co=
untering the censor. At min difficulty everyone can CPU mine again.
Given the presumption that fees rise on unconfirmed transactions, there is i=
nherent economic incentive to countering at any level of difficulty. Consequ=
ently the censor is compelled to subsidize the loss resulting from forgoing h=
igher fee transactions that are incentivizing its competition.
With falling difficulty this incentive is compounded.
Comparisons of security in different scenarios presume a consistent level of=
demand. If that demand is insufficient to offset the censor=E2=80=99s subsi=
dy, there is no security in any scenario.
Given that the block subsidy (inflation) is paid equally to censoring and no=
n-censoring miners, it offers no security against censorship whatsoever. Tra=
ding fee-based block reward for inflation-based is simply trading censorship=
resistance for the presumption of double-spend security. But of course, a c=
ensor can double spend profitably in any scenario where the double spend val=
ue (to the censor) exceeds that of blocks orphaned (as the censor earns 100%=
of all block rewards).
Banks and state monies offer reasonable double spend security. Not sure that=
=E2=80=99s a trade worth making.
It=E2=80=99s not clear to me that Satoshi understood this relation. I=E2=80=99=
ve seen no indication of it. However the decision to phase out subsidy, once=
a sufficient number of units (to assure divisibility) had been issued, is w=
hat transitions Bitcoin from a censorable to a censorship resistant money. I=
f one does not believe there is sufficient demand for such a money, there is=
no way to reconcile that belief with a model of censorship resistance.
> We should not imbue real technology with magical qualities.
Precisely. It is economic forces (people), not technology, that provide secu=
rity.
e
>> Bitcoin does not need active economic governanance by devs or meddlers.
>=20
> Yes, active governance would definitely be an exploitable mechanism. On th=
e
> other hand, the status quo of the block reward eventually going away entir=
ely
> is obviously a risky state change too.
>=20
>>>> There is also zero agreement on how much security would constitute such=
>>> an optimum.
>>>=20
>>> This is really step 1. We need to generate consensus on this long before=
>>> the block subsidy becomes too small. Probably in the next 10-15 years. I=
>>> wrote a paper
>=20
> The fact of the matter is that the present amount of security is about 1.7=
% of
> the total coin supply/year, and Bitcoin seems to be working fine. 1.7% is a=
lso
> already an amount low enough that it's much smaller than economic volatili=
ty.
>=20
> Obviously 0% is too small.
>=20
> There's zero reason to stress about finding an "optimal" amount. An amount=
low
> enough to be easily affordable, but non-zero, is fine. 1% would be fine; 0=
.5%
> would probably be fine; 0.1% would probably be fine.
>=20
> Over a lifetime - 75 years - 0.5% yearly inflation works out to be a 31% t=
ax on
> savings; 0.1% works out to be 7.2%
>=20
> These are all amounts that are likely to be dwarfed by economic shifts.
>=20
> --=20
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--Apple-Mail-76221C1E-812B-468B-B34D-D0497FB044ED
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
name=signature.asc;
x-apple-part-url=A962793E-D2B4-4B43-AFE5-A0C2EB768DD8
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename=signature.asc
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----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=I1Dy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--Apple-Mail-76221C1E-812B-468B-B34D-D0497FB044ED--
|
