path: root/ac/791ed8da336ccad757c819d75ac3e596596413

Return-Path: <fresheneesz@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB4EC0001
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Mon,  7 Jun 2021 06:15:45 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F2283576
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Mon,  7 Jun 2021 06:15:45 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0.702
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
 SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_SBL_A=0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org (amavisd-new);
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id dX2GnsbSeZ6D
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Mon,  7 Jun 2021 06:15:41 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
Received: from mail-ej1-x629.google.com (mail-ej1-x629.google.com
 [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::629])
 by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A88B68354B
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Mon,  7 Jun 2021 06:15:41 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-ej1-x629.google.com with SMTP id og14so19455622ejc.5
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Sun, 06 Jun 2021 23:15:41 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
 h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to
 :cc; bh=+7JSlczvNfu0OJcFFPKApI2R2KPjoZbnkXm58ffI9g0=;
 b=A/E7VeWiQ5bz6wRk4iZm6KpKkEzip4UL0nK7WkYuENlzOdGgCkSNseG94fM2+eiwB3
 yPI8EXoXxYfvmBz7IQt2RTwSM2M6NwKRUlE4sMgfbitPIzzt3orC2Ph2QB+vJHlYYVh5
 6jj0oMFAiEzWOsNMi9uzHpHF/B7TWE2uFle/CFcvUsYDJuUFtSvh4WErfueF/Rjk99jE
 L6mTNbqI54mnkuyFNuJgjGvooWzHhQXmzLGZ4JO1Z6sJYkO9Waf8VnX/RBA5sa182iXB
 ngKgyPZN7o5P8hciIE3ES3J8bKxRkB5/YXp7q59mRFEzoKmGhB2bbQHDe/5/ej/CmB6R
 v4rA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
 h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
 :message-id:subject:to:cc;
 bh=+7JSlczvNfu0OJcFFPKApI2R2KPjoZbnkXm58ffI9g0=;
 b=Opkv5iWvHAhANLL+B31v3pm/HVW+52OvYw/T/83oLS9jlRFLgJxuH4i1EjGI7vDP9B
 sRlPTfx7pPFgjR2LMifUHE3WojMy5fWMBE50W3DafgZwntEIl8ZyAHw5u59kOPjPhs/3
 DDFJVmOeg1cQWo4UtIbHPSY068LX/fcZ0tXeaJoPTaJGlCNL6+DSvWZIWYyzjuzZybTM
 48vX//Ms/YkZNkWX+u86PiRQLKWUJh1qtzfRJJYutAxVsyveeQULCgM5nQQedf/ac/+6
 2D4RkhoO2c0SxmjlZNU04J33jg/N3vyUm0VigEnTdRYIemrEdQC77A2UxnpgYaey+Vxu
 et4w==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Lc74MVWtQi6EPQo1eoA9CoQZ4EYr85hucme3Z6I68YMUUlA+e
 DA6oK0JI9ZMiPFANZe276WtsDJcmzLTPlEnW604=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz2ylevqvoHyqtWCrxNyGgVwUD+4A7CAyCKaO/utRT/Dx8h7z5QDIAeo+xL9DKbihrWLikuJdYvbupZzSnnBAs=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:38c:: with SMTP id
 ss12mr5790468ejb.401.1623046539824; 
 Sun, 06 Jun 2021 23:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <6do5xN2g5LPnFeM55iJ-4C4MyXOu_KeXxy68Xt4dJQMhi3LJ8ZrLICmEUlh8JGfDmsDG12m1JDAh0e0huwK_MlyKpdfn22ru3zsm7lYLfBo=@protonmail.com>
 <L1IhpSfDNx5OPXYnHfcFDiOzJa8jihbR8YE4MBRaYjuQt2GQsrNd0UnJaJg_mCgHNOcG6QE1Wrwp6zZ-YxOgDNu_aBE67HJkbemHz5Nz9c4=@protonmail.com>
 <CAJowKgKgGynQ9NYe_7xEai0tcBW4b=tQnNpv9vndx1hLCowfWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <J3_n3ygIuQf54KXVl8jlbyahX5WJIzffVeDD3yt0RkRbPRyD56OPj3DT05wGJoEfI6XfLOq2DiaN-vdnXSdi7Q23NWrZ-Tg9jzM9jtx8-hg=@protonmail.com>
 <CAJowKgJTEHLeHpKUOavAY9hHZ_3hChkJnMX13K-pSUhch7JwdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <EdKK1tb2px2G--ianlCQpRjsn7vdXkSr60sV18NpVw-uVuKSA-ag9xXch_rYDkhtaJTH36zDMuVGZyYrKagMNNw_0OrLF8QsPiuo-YIxTaE=@protonmail.com>
 <CAJowKgK+i6WDXQcXnEEt+Y7Bq3vr64cTkSvPjraYiYhNRkBP1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <RgxuE0JLcjQQOuVPxCGdSy-GU4oZx3kmuErGtUCM27rhHKLc47kO7A4M0VQBxc8fj3Y026J7PC4wU0onWlm4tgKycTZTFAN_8PQX3-Tl0j4=@protonmail.com>
 <CAJowKgK7nCkog7+b4-b6mGrNzPye0ch2Y+o_mph2zeVN2MaxSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ezYMjgraP-QaPOjNm8r6nF7J1J-XIaDbVClPA0lvqMTQrjyHukVKY7473OfrQfHxyVDLqjingyEhA6yEeTF5FabNyY3NwhDPlRK5PRyLJCU=@protonmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <ezYMjgraP-QaPOjNm8r6nF7J1J-XIaDbVClPA0lvqMTQrjyHukVKY7473OfrQfHxyVDLqjingyEhA6yEeTF5FabNyY3NwhDPlRK5PRyLJCU=@protonmail.com>
From: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 23:15:23 -0700
Message-ID: <CAGpPWDYS6WDZPG0XBmGe=mnnaVjgS-re4D5JAN89gJNNVkW-WA@mail.gmail.com>
To: SatoshiSingh <SatoshiSingh@protonmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000075d1cb05c426f8d8"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 07 Jun 2021 07:38:57 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2021 06:15:45 -0000

--00000000000075d1cb05c426f8d8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

@SatoshiSingh PoLW sounds like a hybrid of PoW and proof of burn. I agree
with befreeandopen that proof of burn is basically a form of proof of
stake. My conclusion from this exploration
<https://github.com/fresheneesz/proofOfTimeOwnership> is that hybrid
protocols are a dead end because hybrid protocols have one weaker link
that's easier to attack.

In this case, miners are burning coinbase rewards. The proof of stake is
the burn itself. However, a miner would only burn coins if doing so lead to
greater rewards in the future. So the burned coins are in fact actually
earned, and still have value. Therefore I would think that miners would
still do an amount of work totaling up to the full value of the block
reward, regardless of whether they burn it, because any burnt coins should
be expected to lead to more coins in the future than were burned. What am I
missing?

On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 10:30 PM SatoshiSingh <SatoshiSingh@protonmail.com>
wrote:

> Great conversation everyone. I'm happy we're still engaged with this
> discussion. To add food for thought I'm bringing back something that was
> introduced in this mailing list sometime ago, which is Proof of Less Work.
>
> PoLW may or may not be it but we can certainly get more ideas from it to
> keep the discussion going.
>
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/alephium/research/master/polw.pdf
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
>

--00000000000075d1cb05c426f8d8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">@SatoshiSingh PoLW sounds like a hybrid of PoW and proof o=
f burn. I agree with befreeandopen that proof of burn is basically a form o=
f proof of stake. My conclusion from <a href=3D"https://github.com/freshene=
esz/proofOfTimeOwnership">this exploration</a>=C2=A0is that hybrid protocol=
s are a dead end because hybrid protocols have one weaker link that&#39;s e=
asier to attack.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>In this case, miners are burning =
coinbase rewards. The proof of stake is the burn itself. However, a miner w=
ould only burn coins if doing so lead to greater rewards in the future. So =
the burned coins are in fact actually earned, and still have value. Therefo=
re I would think that miners would still do an amount of work totaling up t=
o the full value of the block reward, regardless of whether they burn it, b=
ecause any burnt coins should be expected to lead to more coins in the futu=
re than were burned. What am I missing?=C2=A0</div></div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 1=
0:30 PM SatoshiSingh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:SatoshiSingh@protonmail.com">Sat=
oshiSingh@protonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">Great conversation everyone. I&#39;m happy we&#39;r=
e still engaged with this discussion. To add food for thought I&#39;m bring=
ing back something that was introduced in this mailing list sometime ago, w=
hich is Proof of Less Work.<br>
<br>
PoLW may or may not be it but we can certainly get more ideas from it to ke=
ep the discussion going.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://raw.githubusercontent.com/alephium/research/master/polw.=
pdf" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://raw.githubusercontent.com=
/alephium/research/master/polw.pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000075d1cb05c426f8d8--