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From: Jeremy Rubin <jeremy.l.rubin@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 09:18:10 -0400
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To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 lightning-dev <lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 Jeremy <jlrubin@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Pre-BIP] Fee Accounts
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> nonsense marketing

I'm sure the people who are confused about "blockchain schemes as \"world
computers\" and other nonsense
marketing" are avid and regular readers of the bitcoin devs mailing list so
I offer my sincerest apologies to all members of the intersection of those
sets who were confused by the description given.

> useless work

progress is not useless work, it *is* useful work in this context. you have
committed to some subset of data that you requested -- if it was 'useless',
why did you *ever* bother to commit it in the first place? However, it is
not 'maximally useful' in some sense. However, progress is progress --
suppose you only confirmed 50% of the commitments, is that not progress? If
you just happened to observe 50% of the commitments commit because of
proximity to the time a block was mined and tx propagation naturally would
you call it useless?

> Remember that OTS simply proves data in the past. Nothing more.
> OTS doesn't have a chain of transactions
Gotcha -- I've not been able to find an actual spec of Open Time Stamps
anywhere, so I suppose I just assumed based on how I think it *should*
work. Having a chain of transactions would serve to linearize history of
OTS commitments which would let you prove, given reorgs, that knowledge of
commit A was before B a bit more robustly.

>  I'd rather do one transaction with all pending commitments at a
particular time
rather than waste money on mining two transactions for a given set of
commitments

This sounds like a personal preference v.s. a technical requirement.

You aren't doing any extra transactions in the model i showed, what you're
doing is selecting the window for the next based on the prior conf.

See the diagram below, you would have to (if OTS is correct) support this
sort of 'attempt/confirm' head that tracks attempted commitments and
confirmed ones and 'rewinds' after a confirm to make the next commit
contain the prior attempts that didn't make it.

[.........................................................................]
 ------^ confirm head tx 0 at height 34
        ------------------------^ attempt head after tx 0
         -----------^ confirm head tx 1 at height 35
                      --------------------------^ attempt head after tx 1
                      ------------^ confirm head tx 2 at height 36
                                     -------------------------------^
attempt head after tx 2
                                      -------------------------------^
confirm head tx 3 at height 37

you can compare this to a "spherical cow" model where RBF is always perfect
and guaranteed inclusion:


[.........................................................................]
 ------^ confirm head tx 0 at height 34
       -------------------------^ confirm head tx 1 at height 35
                                       -----------^ confirm head at tx 1
height 36
                                                       -----------------^
confirm head tx 3 at height 37

The same number of transactions gets used over the time period.

--00000000000044fc7705dc60c74d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=
=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">nonsense=C2=
=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(3=
4,34,34)">marketing</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br></s=
pan></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I&#39;m sure the people who a=
re confused about &quot;<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(34,34,34)">blockchain schemes as \&quot;world computers\&quot;=
 and other nonsense</span></div>marketing<span class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0=
)">&quot; are avid and regular readers of the bitcoin devs mailing list so =
I offer my sincerest apologies to all members of the intersection of those =
sets who were confused by the description given.</span><div><font color=3D"=
#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D=
"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><=
span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">&gt;=C2=A0</span></span></font>useless =
work<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"=
></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial=
, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">progress is not useless work, it *is* useful =
work in this context. you have committed to some subset of data that you re=
quested -- if it was &#39;useless&#39;, why did you *ever* bother to commit=
 it in the first place? However, it is not &#39;maximally useful&#39; in so=
me sense. However, progress is progress -- suppose you only confirmed 50% o=
f the commitments, is that not progress? If you just happened to observe 50=
% of the commitments commit because of proximity to the time a block was mi=
ned and tx propagation naturally would you call it useless?</span><br></spa=
n></font><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></span></font></div><div><f=
ont color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">&gt;=C2=A0=
</span></span></font>Remember that OTS simply proves data in the past. Noth=
ing more.</div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:=
rgb(0,0,0)">&gt;=C2=A0</span></span></font>OTS doesn&#39;t have a chain of =
transactions</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif"></span></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial=
, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Gotcha -- I&#39;ve not been able to find an a=
ctual spec of Open Time Stamps anywhere, so I suppose I just assumed based =
on how I think it *should* work. Having a chain of transactions would serve=
 to linearize history of OTS commitments which would let you prove, given r=
eorgs, that knowledge of commit A was before B a bit more robustly.=C2=A0</=
span></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvet=
ica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></span></fo=
nt></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,=
0,0)">&gt;=C2=A0</span></span></font><span class=3D"gmail-Apple-converted-s=
pace">=C2=A0</span>I&#39;d<span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span>rath=
er<span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span>do one transaction with all =
pending commitments at a particular time</div>rather than waste money on mi=
ning two transactions for a given set of<br><div>commitments<font color=3D"=
#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></span></font></=
div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></span></font></div><div><font c=
olor=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret=
-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">This sounds lik=
e a personal preference v.s. a technical requirement.</span></span></font><=
/div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)=
"><br></span></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial=
, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">You aren&#39;t doing any extra transactions i=
n the model i showed, what you&#39;re doing is selecting the window for the=
 next based on the prior conf.</span></span></font></div><div><font color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-col=
or: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></span><=
/font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb=
(0,0,0)">See the diagram below, you would have to (if OTS is correct) suppo=
rt this sort of &#39;attempt/confirm&#39; head that tracks attempted commit=
ments and confirmed ones and &#39;rewinds&#39; after a confirm to make the =
next commit contain the prior attempts that didn&#39;t make it.</span></spa=
n></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" fac=
e=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0)=
;"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">[..................................=
.......................................]</span></span></font></div><div><fo=
nt color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"c=
aret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0-----=
-^ confirm head tx 0 at height 34</span></span></font></div><div><font colo=
r=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-co=
lor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 ------------------------^ atte</span></span></font><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">mpt head<span =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> after tx 0</span></span></div>=C2=A0<span c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----------^ conf=
irm head tx 1 at height 35</span></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D=
"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><=
span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------^ attempt =
head after tx 1</span></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=
=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);=
"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ------------^ confirm head tx 2 a=
t height 36</span></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"=
arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><s=
pan class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-------------------------------^ attempt head after tx =
2</span></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, hel=
vetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 -------------------------------^ confirm head tx 3 at height 37<=
/span></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></span></f=
ont></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0=
,0,0)">you can compare this to a &quot;spherical cow&quot; model where RBF =
is always perfect and guaranteed inclusion:</span></span></font></div><div>=
<font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></=
span></span></font></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><br></div><div><div><div><div><font color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"gmail_def=
ault">[....................................................................=
.....]</span></font></div><div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, =
helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0------^ confirm =
head tx 0 at height 34</span></font></div></div><div><font color=3D"#000000=
" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"gmail_default"> =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-------------------------^ confirm</span></font><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0=
head<span class=3D"gmail_default"> tx 1 at height 35</span></span><br></div=
></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><=
span class=3D"gmail_default"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----------^ confirm head at tx 1 height 36</span></fon=
t></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0----------------=
-^ confirm head tx 3 at height 37</span><br></div><div><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div>T<span=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">he same number of transactions gets used ov=
er the time period.</span></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"arial,=
 helvetica, sans-serif"><span><br></span></font><span class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rg=
b(0,0,0)"></span><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div=
><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></div></div></div></div>

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