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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 21:38:00 -0800
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From: Jim Nguyen <jimmy.winn@gmail.com>
To: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Roadmap to getting users onto SPV clients
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Gavin's grandma needs to be able to use bitcoin.  Here is a real world
sampling of the types of people wanting to use bitcoin but are having some
difficulty which I have collected from Facebook.  Should we listen to the
end user? :-P

*"what is the intention of Bitcoin? Is it supposed to be - eventually - for
dummies like myself or is it just for those individuals who are code and
algorithm writers? I downloaded a wallet but how do I know if I need more
software or a massive computer system to solve "the problem" for the next
block? With all the talk of mathematical problem solving on a world wide
network of computers I can't see a small laptop figuring out anything thus
not gaining any bitcoins. Why should I be interested in this if it appears
it's just for computer scientists?"*

*"hi, instaled bitcoin qt, but after it dowladed all the stuff, now i get
DEP protecction from windows, and it tells me bitcoinQT need to run with
DEP on, dont let me make an exception for it, nor work it i turn DEP only
for sys, so hwat i should do?"*

*"hi, i'm new to bitcoin, i got a bunch of free bitcoins from a bunch of
the free sites. how come when i tried to send my bitcoins to myself, it
says the fee exceeds the balance? I thought there was no fees?"*

*"Is there a way to speed up the process of synchronisation with the
network? It has been taken ages on my MAC.*
*Any help would be nice"*
*
*
*and more...*

Sorry if this doesn't belong to the bitcoin-development email list.  I just
see this as end-user/customer data gathering to refine the requirements,
since this is software engineering...isn't it?

Jim

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Our divergence is on two points (personal opinions):
> >
> > (1) I don't think there is any real risk to the centralization of the
> > network by promoting a SPV (purely-consuming) node to brand-new users.
> > In my opinion (but I'm not as familiar with the networking as you), as
> > long as all full nodes are full-validation, the bottleneck will be
> > computation and bandwidth, long before a constant 10k nodes would be
> > insufficient to support propagating data through the network.
>
> Not so=97 a moderately fast multicore desktop machine can keep up with
> the maximum possible validation rate of the Bitcoin network and the
> bandwidth has a long term maximum rate of about 14kbit/sec=97 though
> you'll want at least ten times that for convergence stability and the
> ability feed multiple peers.
>
> Here are the worst blocks testnet3 (which has some intentionally
> constructed maximum sized blocks),E31230 :
> (with the new parallel validation code)
> - Verify 2166 txins: 250.29ms (0.116ms/txin)
> - Verify 3386 txins: 1454.25ms (0.429ms/txin)
> - Verify 5801 txins: 575.46ms (0.099ms/txin)
> - Verify 6314 txins: 625.05ms (0.099ms/txin)
> Even the slowest one _validates_ at 400x realtime. (these measurements
> are probably a bit noisy=97 but the point is that its fast).
> (the connecting is fast too, but thats obvious with such a small database=
)
>
> Although I haven't tested leveldb+ultraprune with a really enormous
> txout set or generally with sustained maximum load=97 so there may be
> other gaffs in the software that get exposed with sustained load, but
> they'd all be correctable. Sounds like some interesting stuff to test
> with on testnet fork that has the POW test disabled.
>
> While syncing up a behind node can take a while=97 keep in mind that
> you're expecting to sync up weeks of network work in hours. Even
> 'slow' is quite fast.
>
> > In fact,
> > I was under the impression that "connectedness" was the real metric of
> > concern (and resilience of that connectedness to large percentage of
> > users disappearing suddenly).  If that's true, above a certain number o=
f
> > nodes, the connectedness isn't really going to get any better (I know
> > it's not really that simple, but I feel like it is up to 10x the curren=
t
> > network size).
>
> Thats not generally concern for me. There are a number of DOS attack
> risks... But attacker linear DOS attacks aren't generally avoidable
> and they don't persist.
>
> Of the class of connectedness concerns I have is that a sybil attacker
> could spin up enormous numbers of nodes and then use them to partition
> large miners.  So, e.g. find BitTaco's node(s) and the nodes for
> miners covering 25% hashpower and get them into a separate partition
> from the rest of the network. Then they give double spends to that
> partition and use them to purchase an unlimited supply of digitally
> delivered tacos=97 allowing their captured miners to build an ill fated
> fork=97 and drop the partition once the goods are delivered.
>
> But there is no amount of full nodes that removes this concern,
> especially if you allow for attackers which have compromised ISPs.
> It can be adequately addressed by a healthy darknet of private
> authenticated peerings between miners and other likely targets. I've
> also thrown out some ideas on using merged mined node IDs to make some
> kinds of sybil attacks harder ... but it'll be interesting to see how
> the deployment of ASICs influences the concentration of hashpower=97 it
> seems like there has already been a substantial move away from the
> largest pools. Less hashpower consolidation makes attacks like this
> less worrisome.
>
> > (2) I think the current experience *is* really poor.
>
> Yes, I said so specifically.  But the fact that people are flapping
> their lips here instead of testing the bitcoin-qt git master which is
> an 1-2 order of magnitude improvement suggests that perhaps I'm wrong
> about that.  Certainly the dearth of people testing and making bug
> reports suggests people don't actually care that much.
>
> > You seem to
> > suggest that the question for these new users is whether they will use
> > full-node-or-lite-node, but I believe it will be a decision between
> > lite-node-or-nothing-at-all (losing interest altogether).
>
> No. The "question" that I'm concerned with is do we promote lite nodes
> as equally good option=97 even for high end systems=97 remove the
> incentive for people to create, improve, and adopt more useful full
> node software and forever degrade the security of the system.
>
> > Waiting a day
> > for the full node to synchronize, and then run into issues like
> > blkindex.dat corruption when their system crashes for some unrelated
> > reason and they have to resync for another day... they'll be gone in a
> > heartbeat.
>
> The current software patches plus parallelism can sync on a fast
> system with luck network access (or a local copy of the data) in under
> an hour.
>
> This is no replacement for start as SPV, but nor are handicapped
> client programs a replacement for making fully capable ones acceptably
> performing.
>
> > Users need to experience, as quickly and easily as possible, that they
> > can move money across the world, without signing up for anything or
> > paying any fees.
>
> Making the all the software painless for users is a great goal=97 and
> one I share.  I still maintain that it has nothing to do with
> promoting less capable and secure software to users.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial
> Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support
> Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services
> Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers
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> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>

--e89a8fb204f4b2f6d504d01462aa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gavin&#39;s grandma needs to be able to use bitcoin. =A0Here is a real worl=
d sampling of the types of people wanting to use bitcoin but are having som=
e difficulty which I have collected from Facebook. =A0Should we listen to t=
he end user? :-P<div>
<div><br></div><div><i>&quot;what is the intention of Bitcoin? Is it suppos=
ed to be - eventually - for dummies like myself or is it just for those ind=
ividuals who are code and algorithm writers? I downloaded a wallet but how =
do I know if I need more software or a massive computer system to solve &qu=
ot;the problem&quot; for the next block? With all the talk of mathematical =
problem solving on a world wide network of computers I can&#39;t see a smal=
l laptop figuring out anything thus not gaining any bitcoins. Why should I =
be interested in this if it appears it&#39;s just for computer scientists?&=
quot;</i></div>
<div><br></div><div><i>&quot;hi, instaled bitcoin qt, but after it dowladed=
 all the stuff, now i get DEP protecction from windows, and it tells me bit=
coinQT need to run with DEP on, dont let me make an exception for it, nor w=
ork it i turn DEP only for sys, so hwat i should do?&quot;</i><br>
</div><div><br></div><div><i>&quot;hi, i&#39;m new to bitcoin, i got a bunc=
h of free bitcoins from a bunch of the free sites. how come when i tried to=
 send my bitcoins to myself, it says the fee exceeds the balance? I thought=
 there was no fees?&quot;</i></div>
<div><br></div><div><i>&quot;Is there a way to speed up the process of sync=
hronisation with the network? It has been taken ages on my MAC.</i></div><d=
iv><i>Any help would be nice&quot;</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div>
<i>and more...</i></div><div><br></div><div>Sorry if this doesn&#39;t belon=
g to the bitcoin-development email list. =A0I just see this as end-user/cus=
tomer data gathering to refine the requirements, since this is software eng=
ineering...isn&#39;t it?</div>
</div><div><br></div><div>Jim</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
ue, Dec 4, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Gregory Maxwell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gmaxwell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmaxwell@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 9:0=
8 PM, Alan Reiner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:etotheipi@gmail.com">etotheipi@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>

&gt; Our divergence is on two points (personal opinions):<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; (1) I don&#39;t think there is any real risk to the centralization of =
the<br>
&gt; network by promoting a SPV (purely-consuming) node to brand-new users.=
<br>
&gt; In my opinion (but I&#39;m not as familiar with the networking as you)=
, as<br>
&gt; long as all full nodes are full-validation, the bottleneck will be<br>
&gt; computation and bandwidth, long before a constant 10k nodes would be<b=
r>
&gt; insufficient to support propagating data through the network.<br>
<br>
</div>Not so=97 a moderately fast multicore desktop machine can keep up wit=
h<br>
the maximum possible validation rate of the Bitcoin network and the<br>
bandwidth has a long term maximum rate of about 14kbit/sec=97 though<br>
you&#39;ll want at least ten times that for convergence stability and the<b=
r>
ability feed multiple peers.<br>
<br>
Here are the worst blocks testnet3 (which has some intentionally<br>
constructed maximum sized blocks),E31230 :<br>
(with the new parallel validation code)<br>
- Verify 2166 txins: 250.29ms (0.116ms/txin)<br>
- Verify 3386 txins: 1454.25ms (0.429ms/txin)<br>
- Verify 5801 txins: 575.46ms (0.099ms/txin)<br>
- Verify 6314 txins: 625.05ms (0.099ms/txin)<br>
Even the slowest one _validates_ at 400x realtime. (these measurements<br>
are probably a bit noisy=97 but the point is that its fast).<br>
(the connecting is fast too, but thats obvious with such a small database)<=
br>
<br>
Although I haven&#39;t tested leveldb+ultraprune with a really enormous<br>
txout set or generally with sustained maximum load=97 so there may be<br>
other gaffs in the software that get exposed with sustained load, but<br>
they&#39;d all be correctable. Sounds like some interesting stuff to test<b=
r>
with on testnet fork that has the POW test disabled.<br>
<br>
While syncing up a behind node can take a while=97 keep in mind that<br>
you&#39;re expecting to sync up weeks of network work in hours. Even<br>
&#39;slow&#39; is quite fast.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; In fact,<br>
&gt; I was under the impression that &quot;connectedness&quot; was the real=
 metric of<br>
&gt; concern (and resilience of that connectedness to large percentage of<b=
r>
&gt; users disappearing suddenly). =A0If that&#39;s true, above a certain n=
umber of<br>
&gt; nodes, the connectedness isn&#39;t really going to get any better (I k=
now<br>
&gt; it&#39;s not really that simple, but I feel like it is up to 10x the c=
urrent<br>
&gt; network size).<br>
<br>
</div>Thats not generally concern for me. There are a number of DOS attack<=
br>
risks... But attacker linear DOS attacks aren&#39;t generally avoidable<br>
and they don&#39;t persist.<br>
<br>
Of the class of connectedness concerns I have is that a sybil attacker<br>
could spin up enormous numbers of nodes and then use them to partition<br>
large miners. =A0So, e.g. find BitTaco&#39;s node(s) and the nodes for<br>
miners covering 25% hashpower and get them into a separate partition<br>
from the rest of the network. Then they give double spends to that<br>
partition and use them to purchase an unlimited supply of digitally<br>
delivered tacos=97 allowing their captured miners to build an ill fated<br>
fork=97 and drop the partition once the goods are delivered.<br>
<br>
But there is no amount of full nodes that removes this concern,<br>
especially if you allow for attackers which have compromised ISPs.<br>
It can be adequately addressed by a healthy darknet of private<br>
authenticated peerings between miners and other likely targets. I&#39;ve<br=
>
also thrown out some ideas on using merged mined node IDs to make some<br>
kinds of sybil attacks harder ... but it&#39;ll be interesting to see how<b=
r>
the deployment of ASICs influences the concentration of hashpower=97 it<br>
seems like there has already been a substantial move away from the<br>
largest pools. Less hashpower consolidation makes attacks like this<br>
less worrisome.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; (2) I think the current experience *is* really poor.<br>
<br>
</div>Yes, I said so specifically. =A0But the fact that people are flapping=
<br>
their lips here instead of testing the bitcoin-qt git master which is<br>
an 1-2 order of magnitude improvement suggests that perhaps I&#39;m wrong<b=
r>
about that. =A0Certainly the dearth of people testing and making bug<br>
reports suggests people don&#39;t actually care that much.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; You seem to<br>
&gt; suggest that the question for these new users is whether they will use=
<br>
&gt; full-node-or-lite-node, but I believe it will be a decision between<br=
>
&gt; lite-node-or-nothing-at-all (losing interest altogether).<br>
<br>
</div>No. The &quot;question&quot; that I&#39;m concerned with is do we pro=
mote lite nodes<br>
as equally good option=97 even for high end systems=97 remove the<br>
incentive for people to create, improve, and adopt more useful full<br>
node software and forever degrade the security of the system.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; Waiting a day<br>
&gt; for the full node to synchronize, and then run into issues like<br>
&gt; blkindex.dat corruption when their system crashes for some unrelated<b=
r>
&gt; reason and they have to resync for another day... they&#39;ll be gone =
in a<br>
&gt; heartbeat.<br>
<br>
</div>The current software patches plus parallelism can sync on a fast<br>
system with luck network access (or a local copy of the data) in under<br>
an hour.<br>
<br>
This is no replacement for start as SPV, but nor are handicapped<br>
client programs a replacement for making fully capable ones acceptably<br>
performing.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; Users need to experience, as quickly and easily as possible, that they=
<br>
&gt; can move money across the world, without signing up for anything or<br=
>
&gt; paying any fees.<br>
<br>
</div>Making the all the software painless for users is a great goal=97 and=
<br>
one I share. =A0I still maintain that it has nothing to do with<br>
promoting less capable and secure software to users.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial<br>
Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support<br>
Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services<br=
>
Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers<br>
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.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--e89a8fb204f4b2f6d504d01462aa--