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From: Agustin Cruz <agustin.cruz@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2025 14:23:21 -0400
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Introducing Hourglass
To: Nagaev Boris <bnagaev@gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Tidwell <michael@tidwell.io>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Hi everyone,
Boris=E2=80=99 point about a quantum capable attacker simply broadcasting a=
nd self
mining at the same time is exactly the scenario that pushed me toward the
QRAMP idea in the first place. Rather than trying to chase a well funded
adversary around the mempool, QRAMP proposal says: let=E2=80=99s set a firm
deadline and make every unspent P2PK output move to a quantum safe address
before it arrives. Once the block height or a date passes, anything that
stayed behind just stops being spendable. Holders who migrate on time keep
full control; coins that don=E2=80=99t make the jump are effectively burned=
 or
otherwise invalidated by consensus, so there=E2=80=99s nothing left for an =
attacker
to sign.

Regards,
Agust=C3=ADn

On Thu, May 1, 2025 at 2:07=E2=80=AFPM Nagaev Boris <bnagaev@gmail.com> wro=
te:

> On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 12:26=E2=80=AFAM Michael Tidwell <michael@tidwell=
.io>
> wrote:
> > - 2. Single Entity rush spends:
> > A single entity generates QC signatures and tries to rapidly flip the
> UTXOs while having their first mover competitive edge. They either
> broadcast to the mempool, partner with miners, or mine directly. This
> creates potential miner collusion if P2PK fees remain low, pressuring the
> QC entity to raise fees and incentivize miners before their competitive
> advantage expires and others catch up.
> >
> [...]
> >
> > - 4. Patient Miner:
> > A single QC capable entity, also operating as a miner or partners with =
a
> miner, chooses to be patient, including P2PK transactions only in their o=
wn
> blocks to maximize long-term profits.
>
> IMHO for a single QC capable entity even if it mines itself or
> partners with a miner, it would make sense to broadcast the
> transaction publicly. If it doesn't broadcast, then it can only
> capture one UTXO when it mines a block - rarely, depending on their
> hashrate share. If it mines itself and broadcasts at the same time,
> there is a possibility that another miner includes the transaction
> into a block. So a rational QC capable entity would broadcast in
> addition to mine themselves.
>
> Also it would make sense to use different UTXOs for broadcasting and
> for self mining: if another miner mines one UTXO, the QC entity can
> continue mining another UTXO trying to mine the next block with it. If
> they use the same UTXO, they would have to quickly make a signature
> for a fresh UTXO for their own block. Or just have a pool of attacked
> UTXOs and take them one by one...
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Boris Nagaev
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
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n0PpkZzLeYeGNE1tYbUzyOA%40mail.gmail.com
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi everyone,<br>Boris=E2=80=99 point abou=
t a quantum capable attacker simply broadcasting and self mining at the sam=
e time is exactly the scenario that pushed me toward the QRAMP idea in the =
first place. Rather than trying to chase a well funded adversary around the=
 mempool, QRAMP proposal says: let=E2=80=99s set a firm deadline and make e=
very unspent P2PK output move to a quantum safe address before it arrives. =
Once the block height or a date passes, anything that stayed behind just st=
ops being spendable. Holders who migrate on time keep full control; coins t=
hat don=E2=80=99t make the jump are effectively burned or otherwise invalid=
ated by consensus, so there=E2=80=99s nothing left for an attacker to sign.=
<br><br>Regards,<br>Agust=C3=ADn</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_q=
uote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, May 1, 2025 a=
t 2:07=E2=80=AFPM Nagaev Boris &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bnagaev@gmail.com">bna=
gaev@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex">On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 12:26=E2=80=AFAM Michael Tidwell &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:michael@tidwell.io" target=3D"_blank">michael@tidwell.io<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; - 2. Single Entity rush spends:<br>
&gt; A single entity generates QC signatures and tries to rapidly flip the =
UTXOs while having their first mover competitive edge. They either broadcas=
t to the mempool, partner with miners, or mine directly. This creates poten=
tial miner collusion if P2PK fees remain low, pressuring the QC entity to r=
aise fees and incentivize miners before their competitive advantage expires=
 and others catch up.<br>
&gt;<br>
[...]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - 4. Patient Miner:<br>
&gt; A single QC capable entity, also operating as a miner or partners with=
 a miner, chooses to be patient, including P2PK transactions only in their =
own blocks to maximize long-term profits.<br>
<br>
IMHO for a single QC capable entity even if it mines itself or<br>
partners with a miner, it would make sense to broadcast the<br>
transaction publicly. If it doesn&#39;t broadcast, then it can only<br>
capture one UTXO when it mines a block - rarely, depending on their<br>
hashrate share. If it mines itself and broadcasts at the same time,<br>
there is a possibility that another miner includes the transaction<br>
into a block. So a rational QC capable entity would broadcast in<br>
addition to mine themselves.<br>
<br>
Also it would make sense to use different UTXOs for broadcasting and<br>
for self mining: if another miner mines one UTXO, the QC entity can<br>
continue mining another UTXO trying to mine the next block with it. If<br>
they use the same UTXO, they would have to quickly make a signature<br>
for a fresh UTXO for their own block. Or just have a pool of attacked<br>
UTXOs and take them one by one...<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Best regards,<br>
Boris Nagaev<br>
<br>
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