summaryrefslogtreecommitdiff
path: root/a1/29bcfafddd2cfd48a46ea715615f1927b72f9f
blob: db2c54dcf730eeb9088053c0318aecbaf0134bed (plain)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
Return-Path: <tomh@thinlink.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
	[172.17.192.35])
	by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C58D847
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:52:21 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-pd0-f175.google.com (mail-pd0-f175.google.com
	[209.85.192.175])
	by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BD23176
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:52:21 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by pdrh1 with SMTP id h1so47422807pdr.0
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Sun, 09 Aug 2015 18:52:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=1e100.net; s=20130820;
	h=x-gm-message-state:subject:references:from:to:message-id:date
	:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type
	:content-transfer-encoding;
	bh=zXLFiRMiRbmkzMBSlfNwzaGPGJL20rCBfiW8B5WV4qw=;
	b=V7EAvLoFz/55k6sWDqsrfYobHSrV3/ot28GIjvQtxilMwO3fh8fO3LnyQrTqVZ9YlJ
	1x+zr5tq4jHi7OQec3qBqrkvllR0rSjujzJZlsgkZWeQ5IwfFPdR+LbFbqo7Ga42wjoB
	anNfHIvhnMu+AVBBCgct7vWuHEYNsSJz0JNKbRiB1/VZZYl1qiZ4pVTELvVmiCMo7AAG
	2d1uKf1Nbf2IePWblj0FkuQHXFYWn7YTOKIa02LhGlrHlTyX1frWwGGapiKrE1vMc2GY
	BfdAoz+oA8LIejUObWICFbNXw+TMH6d19lqw3tUEuc4scXRKb/SkcP+zWx/0C/bWPdFt
	Hy6g==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlYU5o9UthNVWWa/o7OsMR1Uzsqb4/K9Uwp1qPcugmxbBX5fBER8usnmfk3XoX2uzJzxSxk
X-Received: by 10.70.47.3 with SMTP id z3mr9954578pdm.120.1439171540908;
	Sun, 09 Aug 2015 18:52:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.89] (99-8-65-117.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net.
	[99.8.65.117]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id
	le8sm17774683pbc.24.2015.08.09.18.52.19
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
	(version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128);
	Sun, 09 Aug 2015 18:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
References: <CAPg+sBj-wA1DMrwkQRWnzQoB5NR-q=2-5=WDAAUYfSpXRZSTqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABsx9T1NqBX9Tr8vRCtCeri76e0wrtkvRhEPyG9Advv_3Uqxng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPg+sBjwVxYTOn3+bwahHGSGpBh5BCh5b4OOFkw_2x97YZSFPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+w+GKS_wDDgf=HjPgD5QZ_wdTRg7i_oYUgBRmh9HpufETAP=w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABm2gDqvpWdHdjo1OBzbw-6ivu5DEGcfvK8duc3-KAjsSeWapA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+w+GKRPPcgCO0pBP2PjKGU49tWuBoF1vRJzY+4fWn71HOVDPw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABm2gDqV1NdHJZBmUWX3AxVYy6ErU7AB-wsWgGzbiTL1twdq6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+w+GKTLBWj6b4ppwrmnXb_gybYFcrX7haLBSdCnMaijy2An4w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABm2gDpWPhYNh=g-ZXCsfe-aPq=N6NKSWKP9kr-KtPVrWAxB7Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAO2FKHsczkwwqO87cJFtxBp9JE=vf=GcxLx37GpRUkPq8VGHQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<55C79FF0.8040100@thinlink.com>
	<CAOG=w-skYq84=PtN45FB-dGoY1783Jz7K1T16e2JVGjLazWuyA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALJP9GDMgqn2VeR4y4RVxqJ_iW57hExwXBHNSkxo+-AK+7Zb6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAO2FKHu_BVcR-zH-0oRb0v6L_tyuncvUd2fOboKJ9HaKHrVrQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Tom Harding <tomh@thinlink.com>
X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110
To: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Message-ID: <55C803D6.7070706@thinlink.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:52:22 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101
	Thunderbird/38.1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAAO2FKHu_BVcR-zH-0oRb0v6L_tyuncvUd2fOboKJ9HaKHrVrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW
	autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
	smtp1.linux-foundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:52:21 -0000

On 8/9/2015 2:45 PM, Hector Chu wrote:
> Tom, my understanding is that the money that is debited from a payment
> hub is simultaneously credited from either another payment hub or the
> person making the payment, so that the net funds flow at a payment hub
> always sums to zero.

That describes the steady-state dynamics.  I refer to the hub funding
required to initiate and maintain the ability to receive payments.

If Bob opens a channel at his hub, doesn't use it for spending, and
Alice sends 1 BTC to the channel, her payment can only be applied if the
hub has funded the channel with at least 1 BTC.

Yes, the hub receives an offsetting payment (from Alice, ultimately) in
another channel.  But to make this work, it must subject 1 BTC to shared
control with Bob and forfeit the use of that money for other purposes
(opportunity cost) while the channel is open.  The opportunity cost is
likened to gold lease rates in the LN paper.  I would be surprised if
the rates charged to consumers for BTC credit aren't much closer to
today's BTC borrowing rates.  We'll see.

Burying this cost in general fees might not work very well, because
different Bobs may want different maximum payment amounts, and channels
open for different lengths of time.