1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
|
Return-Path: <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
[172.17.192.35])
by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85334486
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:25:26 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de
[80.237.132.66])
by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D43DEE
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:25:25 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from [37.143.74.116] (helo=[192.168.2.15]); authenticated
by wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa
(TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32)
id 1ZSQmQ-0003A2-Pw; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:25:22 +0200
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\))
Content-Type: multipart/signed;
boundary="Apple-Mail=_8A9442D6-22B0-411D-B59A-462100C944F2";
protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512
X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.1
From: Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
In-Reply-To: <55D5C843.5040204@bitcoins.info>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:25:21 +0200
Message-Id: <4F2015D1-1941-4934-BDD7-292B8A7C18EC@bitsofproof.com>
References: <CADWuND3EfO6YO3g4H09_mWhrHC4PX4SZpTTuETiX2PyCxSRCsQ@mail.gmail.com>
<55D1167B.1060107@gmail.com>
<CAEX2NSfaPv0g07hfT31voGWX05Z6uaBsZOjhMkOwBr4mdHbPQw@mail.gmail.com>
<55D124D7.4050209@gmail.com>
<61AD0CE6-014E-44E2-B9C7-00B35D2E09CC@petertodd.org>
<CAEX2NSeAgrN877zAVDrk_J+7EVDPagt8u4+HB7hDMVMPwS6Zng@mail.gmail.com>
<F99FFEE6-6D10-480D-B96D-960B84092C88@gmail.com>
<CABm2gDoEVmqiOpPcf1wUsNt4pmU=oVawq2-0YwrEjm1W1YBmeg@mail.gmail.com>
<55D4A3BD.2060706@sky-ip.org>
<CABm2gDo-jgE7ow5eNTp70YwQKNL3OfDMT=uU9H6G09MS_J2k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
<55D5AB11.3090307@sky-ip.org> <55D5BAE1.4090101@bitcoins.info>
<CAAO2FKHQvfDbS=LW1epbFpUeqFPut8bL_w=Pjb1+BxLRoxagMQ@mail.gmail.com>
<55D5C843.5040204@bitcoins.info>
To: Milly Bitcoin <milly@bitcoins.info>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102)
X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; tamas@bitsofproof.com; 1440080725;
f806ca0f;
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
smtp1.linux-foundation.org
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT 0.11A
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:25:26 -0000
--Apple-Mail=_8A9442D6-22B0-411D-B59A-462100C944F2
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="Apple-Mail=_ABE59D77-F17C-4AF1-AF92-453BF41A5AF0"
--Apple-Mail=_ABE59D77-F17C-4AF1-AF92-453BF41A5AF0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
POW is by design the voting mechanism for the valid chain continuation.
Many rightfully dislike that the same voting mechanism is used on the =
validity rules, since ideally
validators (non-mining full nodes), SPV user and even those having an =
investment in their cold wallet
would all have a vote.
That ideal voting mechanism is not yet in the protocol.
Before XT we used discussions and an informal consensus of those with =
commit access to github to evolve Bitcoin.
The decision, not the discussion, is now suggested to be replaced with =
POW vote with XT.
It is not hard to see problems with both approaches.
If XT comes closer to miner majority, validators will also be forced to =
take side, so they will be able to express
their vote. I think that most Bitcoin entrepreneurs will pick XT if Core =
has no comparable offer
to scale transactions per second.
XT, Not-XT and a Core with some not-BIP101 offer will potentially set =
the stage for the perfect hard fork storm.
I still believe, that the idea of Bitcoin is powerful enough to weather =
that storm.
Tamas Blummer
> On Aug 20, 2015, at 14:29, Milly Bitcoin via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
>> Security is provided via POW.
>=20
> POW is only one aspect of security and that algorithm was created by =
developers and adopted by miners. Developers provide security by =
creating an algorithm and miners provide security by adopting it. If =
the developers and miners decided to do something insecure then Bitcoin =
will be insecure. POW is not some outside force.
>=20
> The security of Bitcoin as a system is a very complex subject that =
involve a number of factors that are the result of actions by humans.
>=20
> Russ
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>=20
--Apple-Mail=_ABE59D77-F17C-4AF1-AF92-453BF41A5AF0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=us-ascii
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">POW is by design the voting mechanism for the =
valid chain continuation. </div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Many rightfully dislike that the same =
voting mechanism is used on the validity rules, since =
ideally </div><div class=3D"">validators (non-mining full nodes), =
SPV user and even those having an investment in their cold =
wallet </div><div class=3D"">would all have a vote.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That ideal voting =
mechanism is not yet in the protocol.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Before XT we used discussions and an =
informal consensus of those with commit access to github to evolve =
Bitcoin.</div><div class=3D"">The decision, not the discussion, is now =
suggested to be replaced with POW vote with XT.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is not hard to see problems with =
both approaches. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If XT comes closer to miner majority, validators will also be =
forced to take side, so they will be able to express</div><div =
class=3D"">their vote. I think that most Bitcoin entrepreneurs will pick =
XT if Core has no comparable offer </div><div class=3D"">to scale =
transactions per second.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">XT, Not-XT and a Core with some not-BIP101 offer will =
potentially set the stage for the perfect hard fork =
storm. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
still believe, that the idea of Bitcoin is powerful enough to weather =
that storm.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Tamas Blummer<br =
class=3D""><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 20, 2015, at 14:29, Milly Bitcoin via =
bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Security is provided via POW.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">POW is only one aspect of =
security and that algorithm was created by developers and adopted by =
miners. Developers provide security by creating an algorithm and =
miners provide security by adopting it. If the developers and =
miners decided to do something insecure then Bitcoin will be insecure. =
POW is not some outside force.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The =
security of Bitcoin as a system is a very complex subject that involve a =
number of factors that are the result of actions by humans.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Russ<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_ABE59D77-F17C-4AF1-AF92-453BF41A5AF0--
--Apple-Mail=_8A9442D6-22B0-411D-B59A-462100C944F2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename=signature.asc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
name=signature.asc
Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org
iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJV1eNSAAoJEPZykcUXcTkcAjkH/AsMg9728E2D9dGuQrGNnXwj
rCEvTPaKfTRWNIM+bRFmzbKC3QE2jrKrxEBO4mhdTiytC/mTj8IakVOQpueetXEy
tf16kW6/BHMI9O3bpD2g7WvdFyknk7YNxl4J3UWAonHwHUvfJOi4x9YQICzLFkyX
mL7eX6LLE5bMyFoCTia5nO7CSwfa3uzTehQQY/6zZu0qYHFIV5enJPiZlptM4kK9
7O6RiIZrdNs6Nymyw8U1BKf6ZpGPYJGWMwctCguAk0cEqbsqGVwD+gCN3GjWvLQk
gfdY7NmGNViOt4vzeTpTwBqfUtYTVoULTxj1rF/7Ahk5354cVvMiexfsy3Pcv58=
=S9An
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--Apple-Mail=_8A9442D6-22B0-411D-B59A-462100C944F2--
|
