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From: Damian Williamson <willtech@live.com.au>
To: Dave Scotese <dscotese@litmocracy.com>,
	"bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full blockchain with
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full
 blockchain with	recent history plus UTXO Set
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A fairly decent rework would be needed but it seems that the idea has merit=
 initially.


As it is now, it is not only that a utxo exists but, that the transaction i=
t references and the block it is within can also be fully validated.


So, if a utxo block set type existed then by consensus every so often a bun=
ch of blocks containing just the validated utxo set to a given height, say =
100,000 blocks below the current blockheight, and necessary header data cou=
ld be appended onto the valid chain and nodes would be free to drop all pre=
ceding blocks. I suspect that many wouldn't and that even many new nodes wo=
uld still desire to download the full blockchain but, for the use case you =
mention it would make sense.


If done [right/wrong] it may even make Satoshi's fortune spendable. Somethi=
ng to watch out for.

________________________________
From: bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org <bitcoin-discuss-bo=
unces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on behalf of Dave Scotese via bitcoin-disc=
uss <bitcoin-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2018 1:46:54 AM
To: Bitcoin Discuss
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full blockchain with rec=
ent history plus UTXO Set

The image at imgur and the pastebin both reference block 542324 but the cor=
rect block is 542322.  As the pastebin shows, the decimal and hex represent=
ations I gave for the block height did not match, and this is why.  If you =
use the Merkle root for block 542322 instead of 542324, you'll be able to s=
ee the correct Game of Life play out and make the apron image.

Dave.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 11:38 AM Dave Scotese <dscotese@litmocracy.com<mail=
to:dscotese@litmocracy.com>> wrote:
I thought I didn't have access to the dev list and so intended to post the =
following proposal to this discussion list, but used the wrong email addres=
s.  Anyway, my email did get into the dev list (https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-September/016420.html) but I'll repeat it=
 here:

I've been working on an idea that relieves full nodes of storing the entire=
 blockchain. Open source software generally relies on the fact that "enough=
" people agree that it's secure. Bitcoin software works that way too. So if=
 you understand enough to see that a UTXO set is valid at a certain block h=
eight, and there are enough other people who agree and that set is recogniz=
able by humans, then we can use that UTXO set and ditch the blockchain that=
 existed up to that point. It would save a lot of storage and make it a lot=
 easier to run a full node.

Have you reviewed the source code from which your wallets were compiled? At=
 some point, we all trust third parties, but generally (at least among peop=
le who understand Bitcoin) they are large composite groups so that no small=
 group or individual can profit from cheating.

I look forward to answering any concerns and also to any offers of help.   =
I used block 542324 of the Bitcoin blockchain to make a memorable experienc=
e using the game of life. I wrote a script for the open-source Game-of-Life=
 software Golly and shared it in the paste at https://pastebin.com/k5Ssc0qk=
. It produces the image at https://imgur.com/a/rwIQuVz. If someone can tell=
 me how to get a UTXO Set from the bitcoin client, I'll send them $50 of bi=
tcoin. Then I could get the SHA256 hash of that set and try to make a recog=
nizable checkpoint for the Bitcoin blockchain. If someone runs Golly and sh=
ares a video of the game playing out (into the apron-shaped image), I'll se=
nd them $50 of bitcoin too.

In a few decades when the blockchain has grown to a few terabytes and the U=
TXO Set is still just a few gigabytes, I'd like to see more people start ru=
nning full nodes without the hassle of a long wait and loads of storage spa=
ce. That's what stops me from running one.


--
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a t=
echie?
I own Litmocracy<http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing<http://www.meme=
racing.net> (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist<http://www.voluntaryist.com> which n=
ow accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for The Dollar Vigilante<http://dollarvigilante.com/>.
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi Nakamo=
to

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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margi=
n-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font=
-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;" dir=3D"ltr">
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">A fairly decent rework would be n=
eeded but it seems that the idea has merit initially.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">As it is now, it is not only that=
 a utxo exists but, that the transaction it references and the block it is =
within can also be fully validated.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">So, if a utxo block set type exis=
ted then by consensus every so often a bunch of blocks containing just the =
validated utxo set to a given height, say 100,000 blocks below the current =
blockheight, and necessary header
 data could be appended onto the valid chain and nodes would be free to dro=
p all preceding blocks. I suspect that many wouldn't and that even many new=
 nodes would still desire to download the full blockchain but, for the use =
case you mention it would make sense.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">If done [right/wrong] it may even=
 make Satoshi's fortune spendable. Something to watch out for.<br>
</p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> bitcoin-discuss-bounc=
es@lists.linuxfoundation.org &lt;bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundat=
ion.org&gt; on behalf of Dave Scotese via bitcoin-discuss
 &lt;bitcoin-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 26 September 2018 1:46:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bitcoin Discuss<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full blockchain w=
ith recent history plus UTXO Set</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>The image at imgur and the pastebin both reference block 542324 but th=
e correct block is 542322.&nbsp; As the pastebin shows, the decimal and hex=
 representations I gave for the block height did not match, and this is why=
.&nbsp; If you use the Merkle root for block
 542322 instead of 542324, you'll be able to see the correct Game of Life p=
lay out and make the apron image.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dave.<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 11:38 AM Dave Scotese &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dscotese@litmocracy.com">dscotese@litmocracy.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left=
:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">I thought I didn't have access to the dev list and so inte=
nded to post the following proposal to this discussion list, but used the w=
rong email address.&nbsp; Anyway, my email did get into the dev list (<a hr=
ef=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-Septembe=
r/016420.html" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermai=
l/bitcoin-dev/2018-September/016420.html</a>)
 but I'll repeat it here:</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I've been working on an idea that relieves full nodes of s=
toring the entire blockchain. Open source software generally relies on the =
fact that &quot;enough&quot; people agree that it's secure. Bitcoin softwar=
e works that way too. So if you understand enough
 to see that a UTXO set is valid at a certain block height, and there are e=
nough other people who agree and that set is recognizable by humans, then w=
e can use that UTXO set and ditch the blockchain that existed up to that po=
int. It would save a lot of storage
 and make it a lot easier to run a full node.<br>
<br>
Have you reviewed the source code from which your wallets were compiled? At=
 some point, we all trust third parties, but generally (at least among peop=
le who understand Bitcoin) they are large composite groups so that no small=
 group or individual can profit
 from cheating.<br>
<br>
I look forward to answering any concerns and also to any offers of help.&nb=
sp;&nbsp; I used block 542324 of the Bitcoin blockchain to make a memorable=
 experience using the game of life. I wrote a script for the open-source Ga=
me-of-Life software Golly and shared it in
 the paste at <a href=3D"https://pastebin.com/k5Ssc0qk" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://pastebin.com/k5Ssc0qk</a>. It produces the image at
<a href=3D"https://imgur.com/a/rwIQuVz" target=3D"_blank">https://imgur.com=
/a/rwIQuVz</a>. If someone can tell me how to get a UTXO Set from the bitco=
in client, I'll send them $50 of bitcoin. Then I could get the SHA256 hash =
of that set and try to make a recognizable
 checkpoint for the Bitcoin blockchain. If someone runs Golly and shares a =
video of the game playing out (into the apron-shaped image), I'll send them=
 $50 of bitcoin too.<br>
<br>
In a few decades when the blockchain has grown to a few terabytes and the U=
TXO Set is still just a few gigabytes, I'd like to see more people start ru=
nning full nodes without the hassle of a long wait and loads of storage spa=
ce. That's what stops me from running
 one.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value=
. Do you need a techie?&nbsp;
<br>
I own <a href=3D"http://www.litmocracy.com" target=3D"_blank">Litmocracy</a=
> and <a href=3D"http://www.memeracing.net" target=3D"_blank">
Meme Racing</a> (in alpha). <br>
I'm the webmaster for <a href=3D"http://www.voluntaryist.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">The Voluntaryist</a> which now accepts Bitcoin.<br>
I also code for <a href=3D"http://dollarvigilante.com/" target=3D"_blank">T=
he Dollar Vigilante</a>.<br>
&quot;He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules&quot; - Sato=
shi Nakamoto</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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