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From: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 08:47:06 -0400
Message-ID: <CADL_X_fs0OVAoFiekm3sLUyODXr6j7mh8M6zQV_dEyg05itE6A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: The Future of Bitcoin Testnet
To: Calvin Kim <ccychc@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Calvin Kim <ccychc@gmail.com> wrote:

> Throwing myself into the conversation because I think there's other devs
> that use testnet like I do.
> I mainly use testnet for checking if the utreexod implementation I'm
> building runs into consensus
> bugs due to the havoc of how testnet creates bursts of blocks and how it
> reorganizes itself. I find
> the unpredictability a feature.
>
> > 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million
> something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not
> doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.
>
> For my usage I never really see this as a problem since signet already
> provides that usecase. While
> I can empathize with devs struggling to get coins, there's always signet
> for the usecase of testing
> scripts/wallets. Signet doesn't really provide the same feature for my
> usecase.
>
> > 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather
> amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset t=
o
> 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk:
> https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/
>
> I stated this above but I find this as a feature.
>
> > 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who
> tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by
> non-developers chasing cheap gains.
>
> Could I get links/sources for this? I'm curious as to how big of a proble=
m
> this is.
>
> SatoshiVM airdrop: https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1753522413466464756

Not sure how to prove that I'm inundated with beggars; I've probably gotten
50 messages on a variety of platforms this year from non-developers asking
for testnet coins.

> 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue
> that the fundamental principle of testnet coins having no value has been
> broken.
>
> Same for this. Would appreciate links/evidence.
>
>
https://buytestnet.com/
https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet


> > 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has
> been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be
> updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?
>
> I lean towards no unless the problem with testnet coins being valued is
> too significant.
>
> > 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a
> one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, a=
nd
> orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which woul=
d
> technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due t=
o
> the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?
>
> Again, I'd lean towards keeping it the same.
>
> > 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate
> testnet in favor of signet?
>
> No as signet doesn't have the features I find valuable in testnet.
>
> Best,
> Calvin
>
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/950b875a-e430-4bd8-870d-f9a9=
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9fab2493an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 4:29=E2=80=AFA=
M Calvin Kim &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ccychc@gmail.com">ccychc@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Throwi=
ng myself into the conversation because I think there&#39;s other devs that=
 use testnet like I do.<div>I mainly use testnet for checking if the utreex=
od implementation I&#39;m building runs into consensus</div><div>bugs due t=
o the havoc of how testnet creates bursts of blocks and how it reorganizes =
itself. I find</div><div>the unpredictability a feature.</div><div><br></di=
v><div><div>&gt; 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It&#39;s on blo=
ck 2.5 million something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mi=
ning is not doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>For my usage I never really see this as a problem since=
 signet already provides that usecase. While</div><div>I can empathize with=
 devs struggling to get coins, there&#39;s always signet for the usecase of=
 testing</div><div>scripts/wallets. Signet doesn&#39;t really provide the s=
ame feature for my usecase.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0<span>=
2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusing =
edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which=
 causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk:=C2=A0</span=
><a href=3D"https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/" re=
l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-=
bitcoins-testnet/</a></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>I stated this a=
bove but I find this as a feature.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; 3. Testnet=
3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who tend to be ge=
nerous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing=
 cheap gains.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Could I get links/sources for th=
is? I&#39;m curious as to how big of a problem this is.</div><div><br></div=
></div></blockquote><div>SatoshiVM airdrop: <a href=3D"https://twitter.com/=
lopp/status/1753522413466464756">https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1753522413=
466464756</a></div><div><br></div><div>Not sure how to prove that I&#39;m i=
nundated with beggars; I&#39;ve probably gotten 50 messages on a variety of=
 platforms this year from non-developers asking for testnet coins.</div><di=
v><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div></d=
iv><div>&gt; 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one co=
uld argue that the fundamental principle of testnet=C2=A0coins having no va=
lue has been broken.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Same for this. Would appr=
eciate links/evidence.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div><a href=3D"https://buytestnet.com/">https://buytestnet.com/</a></div=
><div><a href=3D"https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet">https=
://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet</a></div><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><div><div>&=
gt; 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has =
been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be u=
pdated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?</div><di=
v><br></div><div>I lean towards no unless the problem with testnet coins be=
ing valued is too significant.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; 2. Is there in=
terest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a one liner fix, an=
d I&#39;d argue it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal t=
o the network reset question. Would such a change, which would technically =
be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due to the difficul=
ty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Again, I&#39;d lean towards keeping it the same.</div><div><br></div=
><div>&gt; 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead dep=
recate testnet in favor of signet?</div></div><div><br></div><div>No as sig=
net doesn&#39;t have the features I find valuable in testnet.<br></div><div=
><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Calvin</div><div><div><blockquote style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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