1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
|
Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191]
helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
(envelope-from <ronaldbelliott@gmail.com>) id 1Wwu2D-0007PL-Ta
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:06:49 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com
designates 209.85.216.48 as permitted sender)
client-ip=209.85.216.48; envelope-from=ronaldbelliott@gmail.com;
helo=mail-qa0-f48.google.com;
Received: from mail-qa0-f48.google.com ([209.85.216.48])
by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
(Exim 4.76) id 1Wwu2A-0005ha-Ml
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:06:49 +0000
Received: by mail-qa0-f48.google.com with SMTP id x12so9262002qac.7
for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
Tue, 17 Jun 2014 07:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.140.80.67 with SMTP id b61mr13804410qgd.98.1403014001091;
Tue, 17 Jun 2014 07:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.140.93.69 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jun 2014 07:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.140.93.69 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jun 2014 07:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CA+8=xuLCAyYGV6hmdKRxOGNGHyQvkgnGcwKNN=1JYUhSzvxD2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+8=xuKmE2rgNK+Q4g+Gqvy3QuYAXzVRYtWKC2VttuB_LJmyMA@mail.gmail.com>
<CAMEND1hS2j6dSjwvRSmVn_=UV-r7gujJ+Wo1VLH3nH54F3vBmQ@mail.gmail.com>
<CA+8=xuLCAyYGV6hmdKRxOGNGHyQvkgnGcwKNN=1JYUhSzvxD2w@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 07:06:41 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMEND1jz67Juz4h6q-iJQqsP+DFaQ4OWrwByzzhVQ3XmardbvQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ron Elliott <ronaldbelliott@gmail.com>
To: =?UTF-8?B?UmHDumwgTWFydMOtbmV6?= <rme@i-rme.es>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c136922695ea04fc08a72e
X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
sender-domain
0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
(ronaldbelliott[at]gmail.com)
-0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record
1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
-0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from
author's domain
0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
not necessarily valid
-0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
X-Headers-End: 1Wwu2A-0005ha-Ml
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposals for improving Bitcoin mining
decentralization
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:06:50 -0000
--001a11c136922695ea04fc08a72e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
as I understood your proposal the entire block would be created on the
miner rather than just the block header. Currently miners do not receive a
list of transactions, they receive information required to create the block
header, this is how you keep miners honest. if the miner is creating the
full block we are right back to where we were.
I've only worked with implementing the mining process for a few months now
so someone correct me if I have the process wrong
On Jun 17, 2014 7:01 AM, "Ra=C3=BAl Mart=C3=ADnez" <rme@i-rme.es> wrote:
> Because he cant change the coinbase once the proof of work is done.
> El 17/06/2014 15:58, "Ron Elliott" <ronaldbelliott@gmail.com> escribi=C3=
=B3:
>
>> In this scenario how do you ensure the miner solving the block cannot
>> reapportion the subsidy to himself rather than the pool?
>> On Jun 17, 2014 2:09 AM, "Ra=C3=BAl Mart=C3=ADnez" <rme@i-rme.es> wrote:
>>
>>> First of all I apologice due to the possible mistakes in my writing
>>> below, I am not a Bitcoin developer but I have some knowledge about it.
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> We all know the recent news, Ghash pool controlling 51% of the hashrate=
.
>>> While some consider it a threat others think that is not harmful.
>>>
>>> The thing is that we have to do something to stop this from happening
>>> again.
>>>
>>> My proposal is to start thinking about miners that join a pool like
>>> independent miners and not slave miners, this includes creating a new
>>> mining protocol that does not rely on the pool sending the list of
>>> transactions to include in a block. Each individual miner has to collec=
t
>>> transactions by his own and mine that, this can be achieved by running =
a
>>> full node or by running a SPV like node that ask other nodes for
>>> transactions.
>>>
>>> Once this protocol is developed and standarised we as a community could
>>> require all pools to use it (because its better, because is more
>>> trustless...), not by imposing it but by recommending it.
>>>
>>> Pool owners could send some instructions using this protocol to the
>>> miner about how many transactions to include per block (some pools want
>>> small blocks), how many 0 fee transactions to include, how much is the
>>> minimum fee per Kb to include transactions and some info about the Coin=
base
>>> field in the block.
>>>
>>> This way is impossible to perform some of the possible 51% attacks:
>>>
>>> - A pool owner cant mine a new chain (selfish mining) (pool clients
>>> have a SPV or full node that has checkpoints and ask other peers abo=
ut the
>>> length of the chain)
>>> - A pool owner can't perform double spends or reverse transactions
>>> (pool clients know all the transactions relayed to the network, they=
know
>>> if they are already included on a block)
>>> - A pool owner cant decide which transactions not to include (but
>>> they can configure the minimum fee).
>>> - A pool owner cant get all the rewards by avoiding other pools from
>>> mining blocks (Because the pool client knows the last block independ=
ently
>>> that is from his pool or other).
>>>
>>>
>>> The only thing that a 51% pool owner can do is to shut down his pool an=
d
>>> drop the hashrate by 51% because he does not control the miners.
>>>
>>> If the pool owner owns all the hardware in the pool my proposal is not
>>> valid, if the pool clients dont use this protocol my proposal is not va=
lid.
>>>
>>>
>>> I want to know if this is possible or its been developed or there is
>>> already a working protocol that works like this, also I want to read ot=
her
>>> people's ways to address this threat, thanks for reading.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
>>> HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutio=
ns
>>> Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
>>> Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
>>> Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>>
--001a11c136922695ea04fc08a72e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<p dir=3D"ltr">as I understood your proposal the entire block would be crea=
ted on the miner rather than just the block header. Currently miners do not=
receive a list of transactions, they receive information required to creat=
e the block header, this is how you keep miners honest. if the miner is cre=
ating the full block we are right back to where we were. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I've only worked with implementing the mining process fo=
r a few months now so someone correct me if I have the process wrong</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jun 17, 2014 7:01 AM, "Ra=C3=BAl Mart=C3=
=ADnez" <<a href=3D"mailto:rme@i-rme.es">rme@i-rme.es</a>> wrote=
:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr">Because he cant change the coinbase once the proof of work i=
s done.<br>
</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">El 17/06/2014 15:58, "Ron Elliott" <=
;<a href=3D"mailto:ronaldbelliott@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ronaldbellio=
tt@gmail.com</a>> escribi=C3=B3:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr">In this scenario how do you ensure the miner solving the blo=
ck cannot reapportion the subsidy to himself rather than the pool?</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jun 17, 2014 2:09 AM, "Ra=C3=BAl Mart=C3=
=ADnez" <<a href=3D"mailto:rme@i-rme.es" target=3D"_blank">rme@i-rm=
e.es</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>First of all I apologice due to the possible mistakes=
in my writing below, I am not a Bitcoin developer but I have some knowledg=
e about it.</div><div><br></div><div>----</div><div><br></div>We all know t=
he recent news, Ghash pool controlling 51% of the hashrate. While some cons=
ider it a threat others think that is not harmful.<div>
<br></div><div>The thing is that we have to do something to stop this from =
happening again.</div><div><br></div><div>My proposal is to start thinking =
about miners that join a pool like independent miners and not slave miners,=
this includes creating a new mining protocol that does not rely on the poo=
l sending the list of transactions to include in a block. Each individual m=
iner has to collect transactions by his own and mine that, this can be achi=
eved by running a full node or by running a SPV like node that ask other no=
des for transactions.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Once this protocol is developed and standarised we as a=
community could require all pools to use it (because its better, because i=
s more trustless...), not by imposing it but by recommending it.</div>
<div>
<br></div><div>Pool owners could send some instructions using this protocol=
to the miner about how many transactions to include per block (some pools =
want small blocks), how many 0 fee transactions to include, how much is the=
minimum fee per Kb to include transactions and some info about the Coinbas=
e field in the block.</div>
<div><br></div><div>This way is impossible to perform some of the possible =
51% attacks:</div><div><ul><li>A pool owner cant mine a new chain (selfish =
mining) (pool clients have a SPV or full node that has checkpoints and ask =
other peers about the length of the chain)</li>
<li>A pool owner can't=C2=A0perform double spends or reverse transactio=
ns (pool clients know all the transactions relayed to the network, they kno=
w if they are already included on a block)</li><li>A pool owner cant decide=
which transactions not to include (but they can configure the minimum fee)=
.<br>
</li><li>A pool owner cant get all the rewards by avoiding other pools from=
mining blocks (Because the pool client knows the last block independently =
that is from his pool or other).</li></ul><div><br></div></div><div>The onl=
y thing that a 51% pool owner can do is to shut down his pool and drop the =
hashrate by 51% because he does not control the miners.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If the pool owner owns all the hardware in the pool my =
proposal is not valid, if the pool clients dont use this protocol my propos=
al is not valid.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I want to know if =
this is possible or its been developed or there is already a working protoc=
ol that works like this, also I want to read other people's ways to add=
ress this threat, thanks for reading.</div>
</div>
<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions<b=
r>
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems<br>
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.<br>
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration<br=
>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.n=
et/sfu/hpccsystems</a><br>_______________________________________________<b=
r>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
--001a11c136922695ea04fc08a72e--
|
