path: root/83/5c26cccd18032a4cf9d62603a2777093ac3a09

Delivery-date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:58:08 -0700
Received: from mail-oa1-f58.google.com ([209.85.160.58])
	by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps  (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
	(Exim 4.94.2)
	(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBC7YL44NVYFRBJMCVDCQMGQECWYYGZA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1upsVD-0006mv-Ls
	for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:58:08 -0700
Received: by mail-oa1-f58.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-30cce9bb2bbsf5409201fac.1
        for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:58:07 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1755971881; cv=pass;
        d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        b=VHeJaRQzWF0VFlBFS/21g1HSIgtpY5c6qCLuTechKXuR1pxFiIzwNOehUvQFZ2cJ2b
         LlOjZB3qI1NzXH/Oav/Ipb5HzZSREGjneXQCq5ja2LnFrtqg1UpXcPLItXuxptwgM3Zl
         dA2B19IvQoSFYf4qWdwVIALW2eyHMrwOW5r2DragGQFwV/MBC5k6nyWl66cKJG7XuPjO
         8msdSBgTNUJUDt2ABRJJ6N0RAEq31UmhvccDZKEHko3eL132sSH2FaHNXW53O1t4LGVH
         cUNwk6R9p60KNLJ9xgN9eQfPipKfHCe8z4EBXfCNYvod0dZ4KbzeAecwV84fVoLMe6a5
         OHww==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from
         :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:sender:dkim-signature
         :dkim-signature;
        bh=dFCyo7u6mLrN87tAH/s9stLigtLOHDtVIiKqc/ET+kY=;
        fh=3AiHXVNHgDw8yXyHSvDwJqh7tm3v4PJ2rzapuZFRle4=;
        b=heQmvoy2p5za8+RdZq7JR6Exg+adJWjMeIv+AqHOmGglipXs0La3v1P9ZtHVGaY0a7
         seD+DH0AI/WYDjIcfR2zkQVe8fAgcTFdv73f4TzjGgG8MpZ9scMJOiBuRA7H+81Prch/
         ZVWcjCE8KmHPOppF+fFc3uGifjR76BautX5t1OxyarcxYdp8TS+tpGkheFVci6jfqEOA
         pC80qAPQZ6tZxTX53taxEj1T/oL8Cw4a2WPRO8x1z9VXhOC/1bW43cEm/V/zg7cGMVcD
         lw8cA8iqeWjOpI5iPvwU4Hk6Bf3krLIO/wwgJoYv8q9pmg6gurkkEtHjytkzvonloOKE
         ak6w==;
        darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
       dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=SNxHKAi9;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=saintwenhao@gmail.com;
       dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com;
       dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1755971881; x=1756576681; darn=gnusha.org;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
         :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to
         :references:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
         :reply-to;
        bh=dFCyo7u6mLrN87tAH/s9stLigtLOHDtVIiKqc/ET+kY=;
        b=XcaJdISdu8XxgQrBeiRGBRbErLUKfDgo4aPCQCZbaCC6lT2nbN9yaDzcZJtrfBRHA7
         pfwb5EOnk2+zz4a9s/4qTrcfrmRyhklQe/XUM4gwcY3PEKEhrSEPafALB7Kvoztfflmg
         27b5JDcymjlX2itHs2FFZboRCI8Pt1Le2gliMR4maIYzsBJh3XgI/3In3z8sBQQmnDz2
         TYvj3ekomrGU1Qm6zlyr9saZWomhYt4SigNtxidsK2jAOYfd4er1CYsMlgcm28iFp36A
         HZJ8tY1I3EdGEsQ9ZuZDMNw/a7Sz77lQxL9+dHyy9eMuclcr7Al+VJOyf5+ZRT1Mra6d
         ltqg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1755971881; x=1756576681; darn=gnusha.org;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
         :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to
         :references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
        bh=dFCyo7u6mLrN87tAH/s9stLigtLOHDtVIiKqc/ET+kY=;
        b=XHPuKIjonYRaSXZYgALbwtgvMpaEtZLGxGzF0pttN4fD5tD8GL/EzgAKWtGCElJvll
         gBxxVPs7QtgkUj1Hq7UTJ0BXQH2QPiAd8x8OwtObb+8DqqfMgBJkDA+EFHyRO9JrQMLq
         06LOifzdEX5V+N3dCkvEQQ5VOIKRawFqiElMWeJnKqpxVzDD2L8fXXTsj2VHh2RPF5Hu
         rNUSydVUoRYTxWX1REwjlJqYK+ZOQiZY47gNEu23zhXAcpwFeSEWUJoOpe80Lww05Mas
         rvfhDVw1Td3miFWck6FUvvln9cch6MUa/HTGYH0OO6bFX266VKGlPur+nKYIMnbW7y0g
         RSBA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1755971881; x=1756576681;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
         :x-original-sender:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to
         :references:mime-version:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from
         :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
        bh=dFCyo7u6mLrN87tAH/s9stLigtLOHDtVIiKqc/ET+kY=;
        b=CBL2u59gt5/SoT/5HYwIPUWHETcKaYhYtkG58f9pLev1tBexvJYPwV9MB23XMbfX6F
         dxvLvfJ2Fwo/BEqh99Ytl6+mTmJyMixQTjLbIYLlVa5RKqkyXKXFoCg45HFMIiTblL9a
         TKtSlOvXyj2RH189aZ4i+wdRTzgI+ZmP0gtZjAPXtQPkb9d4ITpq0ucLA6Cn+ZlAtjhC
         5e9zqNmFmHMqQAULjWfWt0wt4Gc2JhZdcSwNQS3LN+cCe3Kpj3IrZWilKLtovmKJCz2F
         glROzz6RjyegjdZHiGxsgd0n1xdSR14Gm4xlhwD+XdKB8TXyVUhCay7P5qPX7Aa73UPC
         bxWA==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCVaBbbGtMOrn/EKliJWqgRZYV7c+EdE5eQLDDvb52c9IUJLHHC1aYFLvQV3g4SbXgCp9LsDWcjHoS1T@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz56REWkQKWsA2l+8mD+imjikJEnsM0w+uUviLO41fKU/7gEdUR
	pQRmzpNqeaLxauDCgtPf4v6gZ3J4E3bj1uz/OzuOEaTS4ENmozTYO1L+
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF8lW0AAIaKrHFq7EcSMLgN8aXy5uVTwI8UDl1a2sNkRWtzyaXU6BkZH9ZkBzUP6GTZCSZxcQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:8918:b0:30c:9eaa:8657 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-314dce1373emr2909986fac.28.1755971880852;
        Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:58:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZcdKW5tYqOwl6XMfBWE+U9En7k75MNxyeV4/tDGcjOyQg==
Received: by 2002:a05:6871:88d:b0:306:e7d7:f921 with SMTP id
 586e51a60fabf-314c228fbb8ls1914122fac.1.-pod-prod-08-us; Sat, 23 Aug 2025
 10:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2226:b0:434:e89:2fd0 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-437852b91a2mr3171254b6e.30.1755971877209;
        Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:600c:638e:b0:456:ce4:c44e with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b5104d01bms5e9;
        Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1e85:b0:458:bc2c:b2ed with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b5179f402mr59123985e9.7.1755971397193;
        Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:49:57 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1755971397; cv=none;
        d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        b=X3zOxfWVMwc30FTq/6CkaryWZUOag+NEArPmZ8jUBKKx1IgVOEc3PB4P9S4xU9LMDJ
         /vZLpNxHbMYh0TTeQDQiRhQngRPTFKOQyczfnLfdgrETjUSFBPH25QJnLtcSnb7usTJT
         OfjojZEa+YZ6zeJeY7x4ptsbVaeothiz2Cnt7sqxKb9XHA1B/6ug9/23zraAtsqur/1s
         4S0k2rgwZGSEXHZUeRewQsiH2MdFCdKUKWbC+kNkSlyr0ak3DaSI20gT4C0zFmt25OR7
         mQZD+zCLW4E0M/mnkf/N85Y66iEReCY01mN+OXQ+U8YWTWM1wdQOlTD9sEyepKQNDdxN
         UqXw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
        h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
         :mime-version:dkim-signature;
        bh=GJh4PBsBboDraiPTHMhzOdNwy+mALOYb8GEtYXzxNtE=;
        fh=oW5/5oUmRRMvy96u/Fl5uZTynMYP3W/WShfBcMiH4EY=;
        b=hJq/STlw5cwSRuskF0Dd5OOME0+ezqzrhvt2x3rlWhyWKHn9POc047mED0YcEGNwgS
         siyngaGQUY4gFVB3ZJ5M4/wvIxK08hcSuHytTdUE2e/Co/JWKDYEGb8grX8h/sXt5lCs
         3g6WobyfOqayxKahE1TuFlCtdPKLgMqcktIvMgb/0mFLj60NsTLS0rzPbJ79pSa0mica
         nUB5iH6DAIOZcuAqO2xxXgBAvFA/5SP3dH2z+rvIB48+oFvhbTWFyPzB/Hxt6BxAt7Cq
         AXkBf8uEHKyuvTy9UnC9FXtTtLL1TK2DgtlWqP1/4zyIJfGBYtcszLc5dBB4wywMVPDZ
         IPww==;
        dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
       dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=SNxHKAi9;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=saintwenhao@gmail.com;
       dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com;
       dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com
Received: from mail-ed1-x52b.google.com (mail-ed1-x52b.google.com. [2a00:1450:4864:20::52b])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b588ab661si316895e9.0.2025.08.23.10.49.56
        for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
        (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
        Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::52b;
Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61c266e81caso1552382a12.3
        for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>; Sat, 23 Aug 2025 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsE1P+UMa0qOIAXZpVSNQ3MM7cEhiaOXk/riMChxqcsQJQIqqZPVTZud4Wni+2
	+oqiS8yjlZn5RlvaxEFewVYxWnoqxdzTrghiEtgpnapOiWyRgnjcGeQtJPz0aE35qsKrHZFjpCP
	LUVypOCKOakVgYo87mwKZigzlq84ACFvHzYmIjf+2ATdkG6joIVkEoHlpZjoXvrPRq2I4CqA2td
	tNSSfE=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:26d2:b0:615:546a:932f with SMTP id
 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61c1b6f9dcdmr4495874a12.18.1755971396175; Sat, 23 Aug 2025
 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <db3d0ec4-90b8-44a4-b912-b98ec9083b10n@googlegroups.com>
 <c4094fa8-8ec0-411c-8a67-80b8fc6282fdn@googlegroups.com> <4f35a82a-bedb-4d4d-9de2-2dbc340b18acn@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <4f35a82a-bedb-4d4d-9de2-2dbc340b18acn@googlegroups.com>
From: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 19:49:45 +0200
X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXzh4Fuu7EcUZhqTDcIWRMhx4jtPi4piHAeYS7EV0gCBykVY3dTwLaiWdhs
Message-ID: <CACgYNOJxNHQfTQdzz8uzd0S9erwF27ND0ASMWxxUqGBkKy+VVg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Introducing Hourglass
To: Hunter Beast <hunter@surmount.systems>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e0a5d063d0bf310"
X-Original-Sender: saintwenhao@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       dkim=pass
 header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=SNxHKAi9;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52b
 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=saintwenhao@gmail.com;       dmarc=pass
 (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com;       dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
 <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/)

--0000000000004e0a5d063d0bf310
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Relative to other approaches, Hourglass is also the most
incentive-compatible with miners. If P2PK spends are limited to 1 per
block, it is possible we will see potential bidding wars for these
transactions at the fee level-- distributing some of the funds accrued
through quantum retrieval to miners in the form of high fees.

I have some good news: it can be done without any soft-forks, if needed. If
the main goal is to restrict spendability of coins, by relying on Proof of
Work, then it can be done, by using OP_SIZE on DER signatures, and
combining it with OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY or OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY, as
proposed by ertil here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5551080.msg65724436#msg65724436

The simplest Script has this form, and can be used inside P2WSH:

OP_SIZE OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY OP_DROP <pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG

Then, everything is timelocked to at least 9 blocks, if secp256k1 and
SHA-256 is fully broken, but it depends mainly on the size of the
signature, and more realistic sizes are something around 70 bytes (or
around 60 bytes, if someone wants to use half of the generator as R-value;
some miners can do that, if they can be sure, that nobody will reorg their
blocks, and if they are not worried about revealing their keys for some
addresses). The granularity can be increased, for example by a factor of
four, like it was in Signet faucet:
https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/proof-of-work-based-signet-faucet/937

OP_SIZE OP_DUP OP_ADD OP_DUP OP_ADD OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY OP_DROP <pubkey>
OP_CHECKSIG

Then, realistically, things can be timelocked to something like 70*4=3D280
blocks, and users can decrease it by four blocks for each grinded byte in a
given signature. If private key for every secp256k1 point is known, the
size of the signature will decrease to something like 40 bytes, so things
will be still timelocked to something around 160 blocks, and will still
require SHA-256 grinding, to move coins faster.

niedz., 4 maj 2025 o 11:12 Hunter Beast <hunter@surmount.systems>
napisa=C5=82(a):

> Trading volume is a good perspective to view this through, actually. If a=
n
> attacker decides to consolidate immediately, they could do so within just=
 a
> couple hours and suppress the Bitcoin price for a long time.
>
> > 1.7 million Bitcoin represents possibly about 1 week of global trading
> volumes. Even assuming it is 1-2 months of trading volumes, the market ca=
n
> absorb.
>
> Hourglass spreads that 1 week of trading volume over a minimum of 8
> months, possibly more.
>
> > Trying to manage the Bitcoin price via spending restrictions is a
> terrible idea.
>
> While I generally agree with this sentence, I think P2PK coins are an
> exceptional case.
>
> > In any case, the Bitcoin price routinely drops by upwards of 85%. It is
> not a security concern. Price volatility is not a security.
>
> Price volatility absolutely impacts security, and this would be an
> unprecedented event. We also haven't seen an 85% price drop in a long tim=
e.
>
> On Saturday, May 3, 2025 at 5:55:28=E2=80=AFAM UTC-6 Francis Pouliot wrot=
e:
>
>>
>> Concept NACK.
>>
>> 1.7 million Bitcoin represents possibly about 1 week of global trading
>> volumes. Even assuming it is 1-2 months of trading volumes, the market c=
an
>> absorb.
>>
>> Trying to manage the Bitcoin price via spending restrictions is a
>> terrible idea.
>>
>> In any case, the Bitcoin price routinely drops by upwards of 85%. It is
>> not a security concern. Price volatility is not a security.
>> On Tuesday, April 29, 2025 at 5:08:16=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Hunter Beast wrot=
e:
>>
>>> This is a proposal to mitigate against potential mass liquidation of
>>> P2PK funds. The specification is pretty simple, but the motivation and
>>> justification for it is a bit longer.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass/bip-hourglass.mediaw=
iki
>>>
>>> Feedback welcome!
>>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4f35a82a-bedb-4d4d-9de2-2dbc=
340b18acn%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4f35a82a-bedb-4d4d-9de2-2db=
c340b18acn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
> .
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
CACgYNOJxNHQfTQdzz8uzd0S9erwF27ND0ASMWxxUqGBkKy%2BVVg%40mail.gmail.com.

--0000000000004e0a5d063d0bf310
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Relative to other approaches, Hourglass is also the m=
ost incentive-compatible with miners. If P2PK spends are limited to 1 per b=
lock, it is possible we will see potential bidding wars for these transacti=
ons at the fee level-- distributing some of the funds accrued through quant=
um retrieval to miners in the form of high fees.<br><br>I have some good ne=
ws: it can be done without any soft-forks, if needed. If the main goal is t=
o restrict spendability of coins, by relying on Proof of Work, then it can =
be done, by using OP_SIZE on DER signatures, and combining it with OP_CHECK=
SEQUENCEVERIFY or OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY, as proposed by ertil here: <a hre=
f=3D"https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5551080.msg65724436#msg65724=
436">https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5551080.msg65724436#msg65724=
436</a><br><br>The simplest Script has this form, and can be used inside P2=
WSH:<br><br>OP_SIZE OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY OP_DROP &lt;pubkey&gt; OP_CHECKS=
IG<br><br>Then, everything is timelocked to at least 9 blocks, if secp256k1=
 and SHA-256 is fully broken, but it depends mainly on the size of the sign=
ature, and more realistic sizes are something around 70 bytes (or around 60=
 bytes, if someone wants to use half of the generator as R-value; some mine=
rs can do that, if they can be sure, that nobody will reorg their blocks, a=
nd if they are not worried about revealing their keys for some addresses). =
The granularity can be increased, for example by a factor of four, like it =
was in Signet faucet: <a href=3D"https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/proof-of-work=
-based-signet-faucet/937">https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/proof-of-work-based-=
signet-faucet/937</a><br><br>OP_SIZE OP_DUP OP_ADD OP_DUP OP_ADD OP_CHECKSE=
QUENCEVERIFY OP_DROP &lt;pubkey&gt; OP_CHECKSIG<br><br>Then, realistically,=
 things can be timelocked to something like 70*4=3D280 blocks, and users ca=
n decrease it by four blocks for each grinded byte in a given signature. If=
 private key for every secp256k1 point is known, the size of the signature =
will decrease to something like 40 bytes, so things will be still timelocke=
d to something around 160 blocks, and will still require SHA-256 grinding, =
to move coins faster.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_contai=
ner"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">niedz., 4 maj 2025 o 11:12=C2=A0=
Hunter Beast &lt;hunter@surmount.systems&gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Trading volume is a good pers=
pective to view this through, actually. If an attacker decides to consolida=
te immediately, they could do so within just a couple hours and suppress th=
e Bitcoin price for a long time.<br><br>&gt;=C2=A01.7 million Bitcoin repre=
sents possibly about 1 week of global trading volumes. Even assuming it is =
1-2 months of trading volumes, the market can absorb.<br><br>Hourglass spre=
ads that 1 week of trading volume over a minimum of 8 months, possibly more=
.<br><br>&gt;=C2=A0Trying to manage the Bitcoin price via spending restrict=
ions is a terrible idea.<br><br>While I generally agree with this sentence,=
 I think P2PK coins are an exceptional case.<br><br>&gt;=C2=A0In any case, =
the Bitcoin price routinely drops by upwards of 85%. It is not a security c=
oncern. Price volatility is not a security.<br><br>Price volatility absolut=
ely impacts security, and this would be an unprecedented event. We also hav=
en&#39;t seen an 85% price drop in a long time.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Saturday, May 3, 2025 at 5=
:55:28=E2=80=AFAM UTC-6 Francis Pouliot wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>Concept NACK.<br><br>1.7 million Bitco=
in represents possibly about 1 week of global trading volumes. Even assumin=
g it is 1-2 months of trading volumes, the market can absorb.<br><br>Trying=
 to manage the Bitcoin price via spending restrictions is a terrible idea.<=
br><br>In any case, the Bitcoin price routinely drops by upwards of 85%. It=
 is not a security concern. Price volatility is not a security. <br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tuesday, Apri=
l 29, 2025 at 5:08:16=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Hunter Beast wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">This is a proposal to mitigate a=
gainst potential mass liquidation of P2PK funds. The specification is prett=
y simple, but the motivation and justification for it is a bit longer.<div>=
<br></div><div><a aria-label=3D"Link https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/bl=
ob/hourglass/bip-hourglass.mediawiki" href=3D"https://github.com/cryptoquic=
k/bips/blob/hourglass/bip-hourglass.mediawiki" rel=3D"noreferrer noopener n=
ofollow" title=3D"https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/hourglass/bip-ho=
urglass.mediawiki" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/bl=
ob/hourglass/bip-hourglass.mediawiki</a></div><div><br></div><div>Feedback =
welcome!</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=
=3D"_blank">bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/4f35a82a-bedb-4d4d-9de2-2dbc340b18acn%40googlegroups.com?utm_med=
ium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.googl=
e.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4f35a82a-bedb-4d4d-9de2-2dbc340b18acn%40googlegrou=
ps.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind=
ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/CACgYNOJxNHQfTQdzz8uzd0S9erwF27ND0ASMWxxUqGBkKy%2BVVg%40mail.gma=
il.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/=
msgid/bitcoindev/CACgYNOJxNHQfTQdzz8uzd0S9erwF27ND0ASMWxxUqGBkKy%2BVVg%40ma=
il.gmail.com</a>.<br />

--0000000000004e0a5d063d0bf310--