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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: MultiBit as default desktop
client on bitcoin.org
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--089e0112ce20152a3f04e111bbeb
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Modern Java versions let you bundle the app with a stripped down JVM. I
don't know if Jim does that, but I think it's an obvious step towards
making MultiBit friendlier and easier to use.
BTW I believe most secure browsers (Chrome, Firefox) have banned the applet
plugin or severely restrained it anyway. So even if you install the JVM and
plugin together there is not an issue.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 3:20 AM, Caleb James DeLisle <
calebdelisle@lavabit.com> wrote:
> Java (Applet) security is indeed abysmal but lets compare apples to apples.
> With an applet some random guy with a website makes up some Java code and
> your browser automatically executes it.
> With Multibit you're only executing highly trusted code (so trusted that it
> handles your money).
> There has almost never been a Java exploit against secure trusted code.
>
> The idea of discouraging use of java apps just because people would be
> tricked into activating the browser plugin when installing the JVM is
> probably valid but Multibit is the only reasonably complete client outside
> of bitcoinqt and I think client diversity is more important than stamping
> out java.
>
> Thanks,
> Caleb
>
>
> On 07/08/2013 08:22 PM, Robert Backhaus wrote:
> > But... Multibit is Java. Java's security problems has made it an instant
> uninstall item on windows PCs for about a year now. Java exploits are a
> dime a dozen.
> >
> > Yes, you can reduce some of the problems by manually disabling the
> browser plugin, but how many users will do that?
> >
> > Recommending a fast SPV client as a first wallet - yes, of course.
> Recommending users open such a huge attack interface on their computers by
> installing Java - No go. Until Multibit is provided as a compiled binary
> without a Java dependency, it is DOA.
> >
> >
> > On 1 July 2013 02:39, Gary Rowe <g.rowe@froot.co.uk <mailto:
> g.rowe@froot.co.uk>> wrote:
> >
> > I've beefed up the supporting documentation for the website to make
> it more accessible for developers who wish to contribute. It's a Java
> application serving HTML.
> >
> > It can be found here: https://github.com/jim618/multibit-website
> >
> >
> > On 30 June 2013 16:19, Jim <jim618@fastmail.co.uk <mailto:
> jim618@fastmail.co.uk>> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah "email jim' was never going to work so I have
> > bumped up MultiBit support (a bit) by:
> >
> > + having a dedicated Support page on the website
> > https://multibit.org/support.html
> > It has fixes and support notes for the most common gotchas.
> > + the in-app help also now has a 'Support' section with
> > "Troubleshooting' and the commonest gotchas.
> > I've also written more help to cover as much as possible.
> > + Failing that people are directed first to
> bitcoin.stackchange.com <http://bitcoin.stackchange.com>
> > (I have a notification set up for the 'multibit' keyword.
> > + Then finally users are directed to the github issues to search
> > existing or raise a new issue. Gary and Tim often chip in on
> there to
> > close
> > issues down as well as me.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 30, 2013, at 12:42 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
> > > Sounds like we have consensus, Saivann, shall we do it?
> > >
> > > I'm also going to ask Theymos again to relax the newbie
> restrictions
> > > for the alt client forums. It's probably too hard to get
> support at
> > > the moment and "email jim" doesn't scale at all.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Gavin Andresen <
> gavinandresen@gmail.com <mailto:gavinandresen@gmail.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I vote "yes" to have MultiBit replace Bitcoin-Qt as the
> recommended
> > > > desktop wallet app. I think most users will be happier with
> it.
> > > >
> > > > If I'm wrong, it is easy to change back.
> > > >
> > > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:
> > > >
> > > > Build for Windows Store.
> > > >
> > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > > >
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:
> > >
> > > Build for Windows Store.
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> > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev
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> > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > >
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
> >
> > --
> > https://multibit.org Money, reinvented
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:
> >
> > Build for Windows Store.
> >
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:
> >
> > Build for Windows Store.
> >
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics
> > Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics
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> > Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today!
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>
--089e0112ce20152a3f04e111bbeb
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">Modern Java versions let you bundle the app with a strippe=
d down JVM. I don't know if Jim does that, but I think it's an obvi=
ous step towards making MultiBit friendlier and easier to use.<div><br></di=
v>
<div>BTW I believe most secure browsers (Chrome, Firefox) have banned the a=
pplet plugin or severely restrained it anyway. So even if you install the J=
VM and plugin together there is not an issue.</div></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 3:20 AM, Caleb Ja=
mes DeLisle <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:calebdelisle@lavabit.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">calebdelisle@lavabit.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Java (Applet) security is indeed abysmal but lets compare apples to apples.=
<br>
With an applet some random guy with a website makes up some Java code and<b=
r>
your browser automatically executes it.<br>
With Multibit you're only executing highly trusted code (so trusted tha=
t it<br>
handles your money).<br>
There has almost never been a Java exploit against secure trusted code.<br>
<br>
The idea of discouraging use of java apps just because people would be<br>
tricked into activating the browser plugin when installing the JVM is<br>
probably valid but Multibit is the only reasonably complete client outside<=
br>
of bitcoinqt and I think client diversity is more important than stamping<b=
r>
out java.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Caleb<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
On 07/08/2013 08:22 PM, Robert Backhaus wrote:<br>
> But... Multibit is Java. Java's security problems has made it an i=
nstant uninstall item on windows PCs for about a year now. Java exploits ar=
e a dime a dozen.<br>
><br>
> Yes, you can reduce some of the problems by manually disabling the bro=
wser plugin, but how many users will do that?<br>
><br>
> Recommending a fast SPV client as a first wallet - yes, of course. Rec=
ommending users open such a huge attack interface on their computers by ins=
talling Java - No go. Until Multibit is provided as a compiled binary witho=
ut a Java dependency, it is DOA.<br>
><br>
><br>
</div><div class=3D"im">> On 1 July 2013 02:39, Gary Rowe <<a href=3D=
"mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk">g.rowe@froot.co.uk</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk">g.rowe@froot.co.uk</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I've beefed up the supporting documentation for the =
website to make it more accessible for developers who wish to contribute. I=
t's a Java application serving HTML.<br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It can be found here: <a href=3D"https://github.com/jim6=
18/multibit-website" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/jim618/multibit-w=
ebsite</a><br>
><br>
><br>
</div><div class=3D"im">> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 30 June 2013 16:19, Jim <<=
a href=3D"mailto:jim618@fastmail.co.uk">jim618@fastmail.co.uk</a> <mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:jim618@fastmail.co.uk">jim618@fastmail.co.uk</a>>>=
; wrote:<br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yeah "email jim' was never going =
to work so I have<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bumped up MultiBit support (a bit) by:<br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + having a dedicated Support page on the w=
ebsite<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://multibit.o=
rg/support.html" target=3D"_blank">https://multibit.org/support.html</a><br=
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It has fixes and support note=
s for the most common gotchas.<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + the in-app help also now has a 'Supp=
ort' section with<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Troubleshooting' an=
d the commonest gotchas.<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I've also written more he=
lp to cover as much as possible.<br>
</div>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + Failing that people are directed f=
irst to <a href=3D"http://bitcoin.stackchange.com" target=3D"_blank">bitcoi=
n.stackchange.com</a> <<a href=3D"http://bitcoin.stackchange.com" target=
=3D"_blank">http://bitcoin.stackchange.com</a>><br>
<div class=3D"im">> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(I have a n=
otification set up for the 'multibit' keyword.<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + Then finally users are directed to the g=
ithub issues to search<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0existing or raise a new issue=
. Gary and Tim often chip in on there to<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0close<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0issues down as well as me.<br=
>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Sun, Jun 30, 2013, at 12:42 PM, Mike He=
arn wrote:<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sounds like we have consensus, Saivan=
n, shall we do it?<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I'm also going to ask Theymos aga=
in to relax the newbie restrictions<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > for the alt client forums. It's p=
robably too hard to get support at<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the moment and "email jim" =
doesn't scale at all.<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ><br>
</div>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 4:24 PM=
, Gavin Andresen <<a href=3D"mailto:gavinandresen@gmail.com">gavinandres=
en@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gavinandresen@gmail.com">gavi=
nandresen@gmail.com</a>>><br>
<div class=3D"im">> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > wrote:<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > I vote "yes" to have M=
ultiBit replace Bitcoin-Qt as the recommended<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > desktop wallet app. I think most=
users will be happier with it.<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > If I'm wrong, it is easy to =
change back.<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > --------------------------------=
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r>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > ________________________________=
_______________<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Bitcoin-development mailing list=
<br>
</div>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-=
development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.ne=
t</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.ne=
t">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>><br>
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lank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><=
br>
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> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _____________________________________=
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> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
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opment@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>=
<mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bi=
tcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>><br>
<div class=3D"im">> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <a href=3D"https://=
lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://multibit.org" target=3D=
"_blank">https://multibit.org</a> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Money, reinvented<br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ------------------------------------------=
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> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 __________________________________________=
_____<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
</div>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-developmen=
t@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a> <=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin=
-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>><br>
<div class=3D"im">> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://lists=
.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------<br>
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=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev</a><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________<br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
</div>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.source=
forge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a> <mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@l=
ists.sourceforge.net</a>><br>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/=
bitcoin-development" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/=
listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------<br>
> See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics<br>
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/gampad/clk?id=3D48808831&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br>
<div class=3D"im">><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-d=
evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-develo=
pment" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco=
in-development</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
</div>See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics<br>
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<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">___________________________________=
____________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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