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From: Cloud Strife <quantumas3@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 15:07:43 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHeORgKKfvY5a8_dQ3KOsCEV5spHsMg42FOfcO5CCkN6+jUPMw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future
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Proof of stake is permissioned by coins, an internal, permissioned, and
already owned resource.

You cannot gain tokens without someone choosing to give up those coins - a
form of permission. Permission can also be thought of as an infinite
barrier to entry.

PoW forces giving up control through both permissionless to enter mining
via EXTERNAL permissionless resources and unforgeable costliness for the
miners.

Without unforgeable costliness there's no reason to ever give up control in
PoS.

In fact, staking quite literally incentivizes keeping control by rewarding
those in control with more coins and control in perpetuity at no cost - the
incentives on PoS are completely backwards from decentralizing control.

Since no mechanism forces control to be permissionlessly distributed to
others, parties in control cannot be considered independent parties nor can
control be considered decentralized.

PoS solves nothing that's relevant to permissionless decentralized networks.


> In the following years we'll be seeing proof of stake being implemented


It has been implemented since 2014 but it doesn't meet criteria for a
permissionless network. There's nothing new about implementing permissioned
networks.

You could try to replace proof of work with proof of bitcoin burn (not well
studied) on blockchains other than Bitcoin, but there's no known
replacement for proof of work for Bitcoin right now.

PoS has been considered and studied since then many times since then and
dismissed repeatedly for irrelevance to decentralized permissionless
technology, examples:

   - https://nakamotoinstitute.org/research/on-stake-and-consensus/
   -
   https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-stake-e70b12b988ca
   - https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
   -
   https://hugonguyen.medium.com/work-is-timeless-stake-is-not-554c4450ce18
   - https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.06528



On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 10:49 AM Karl via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> What is more important;
>> Bitcoin mining introduces the first free-market demand for the cheapest
>> energy source.
>
>
> This is a really great idea but I think access to technologically advanced
> hardware is a stronger component than energy here.
>
> Making open community chip fabs might change that.  Then anybody could get
> on the bandwagon.  But right now the hardware barrier keeps the common
> person out.
>
> If you can build a chip fab, you may also be able to build a powerplant.
> Not many others can do that to compete with you.  The energy economy still
> has more supply than competition or renewable energy would quickly
> outcompete nonrenewable as the price dropped.
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

--000000000000d3396a05c1ea6088
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Proof of stake is permissioned by co=
ins, an internal, permissioned, and already owned resource.=C2=A0</div><div=
><br></div><div>You cannot gain tokens without someone choosing to give up =
those coins - a form of permission. Permission can also be thought of as an=
 infinite barrier to entry.</div><div><br></div><div>PoW forces giving up c=
ontrol through both permissionless to enter mining via EXTERNAL=20

permissionless=20

resources and unforgeable costliness for the miners.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Without unforgeable costliness there&#39;s no reason to ever give up con=
trol in PoS.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>In fact, staking quite literall=
y incentivizes keeping control by rewarding those in control with more coin=
s and control in perpetuity at no cost - the incentives on PoS are complete=
ly backwards from decentralizing control.</div><div><br></div><div><div>Sin=
ce no mechanism forces control to be=C2=A0permissionlessly distributed to o=
thers, parties in control cannot be considered independent parties nor can =
control be considered decentralized.</div><div><br></div><div>PoS solves no=
thing that&#39;s relevant to permissionless decentralized networks.</div></=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">In t=
he following years we&#39;ll be seeing proof of stake being implemented</bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>It has been implemented since 2014 but it does=
n&#39;t meet criteria for a permissionless network. There&#39;s nothing new=
 about implementing permissioned networks.</div><div><br></div><div>You cou=
ld try to replace proof of work with proof of bitcoin burn=20

 (not well studied) on blockchains other than Bitcoin, but there&#39;s no k=
nown replacement for proof of work for Bitcoin right now.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><div>PoS has been considered and studied since then many times sinc=
e then and dismissed repeatedly for irrelevance to decentralized permission=
less technology, examples:</div></div><div><ul><li><a href=3D"https://nakam=
otoinstitute.org/research/on-stake-and-consensus/">https://nakamotoinstitut=
e.org/research/on-stake-and-consensus/</a>=C2=A0=C2=A0</li><li><a href=3D"h=
ttps://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-stake-e70=
b12b988ca">https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-=
of-stake-e70b12b988ca</a></li><li><a href=3D"https://www.truthcoin.info/blo=
g/pow-cheapest/">https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/</a></li><li>=
<a href=3D"https://hugonguyen.medium.com/work-is-timeless-stake-is-not-554c=
4450ce18">https://hugonguyen.medium.com/work-is-timeless-stake-is-not-554c4=
450ce18</a></li><li><a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.06528">https://ar=
xiv.org/abs/1809.06528</a></li></ul></div><div><br></div></div><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, May 8, 202=
1 at 10:49 AM Karl via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">What is more important; <br>Bitcoin mining introduces the f=
irst free-market demand for the cheapest energy source.</blockquote></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">This is a really great idea bu=
t I think access to technologically advanced hardware is a stronger compone=
nt than energy here.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Mak=
ing open community chip fabs might change that.=C2=A0 Then anybody could ge=
t on the bandwagon.=C2=A0 But right now the hardware barrier keeps the comm=
on person out.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If you ca=
n build a chip fab, you may also be able to build a powerplant.=C2=A0 Not m=
any others can do that to compete with you.=C2=A0 The energy economy still =
has more supply than competition or renewable energy would quickly outcompe=
te nonrenewable as the price dropped.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></di=
v>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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