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From: Kyle Honeycutt <coinables@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2025 07:29:27 -0700
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] BIP39 Extension for Manual Seed Phrase Creation
To: Eric Kvam <nerdyrugbyguy@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Respectfully, a "black box" is not trusted to generate mnemonic
passphrases, the standard is well-defined and generally followed across
wallets.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki#Generating_t=
he_mnemonic

Users can create their own mnemonics in a trustless way following the BIP39
standard published in 2013.

Using any entropy source a user can perform a SHA256 hash on the entropy to
get a 256 bit string, then convert that to binary. Perform another SHA256
hash on the binary, take the first 8 bits and solve for checksum and then
solve the rest of mnemonic words.

On Fri, May 23, 2025, 6:15=E2=80=AFAM Eric Kvam <nerdyrugbyguy@gmail.com> w=
rote:

> *Motivation*
> Make it easy for users to manually create their seed phrase so that they
> don't have to trust a "black box" and allow for encoding derivation path =
in
> seed phrase to simplify recovery
>
> *How*
> Use every eighth word from the wordlist to generate 16 word phrases with
> 128 bits of entropy (no checksum).  The most significant eight bits of ea=
ch
> word are used as entropy.  The least significant three bits of each word
> specify the derivation path.
>
>    - *000* Derivation Path Not Specified
>    - *001* m/44'/0'/0'
>    - *010* m/49'/0'/0'
>    - *011* m/84'/0'/0'
>    - *100* m/48'/0'/0'/2'
>    - *101* m/86'/0'/0'
>
> Up to seven derivation paths can be specified if all words have the same
> least significant bits.  If the least significant bits of each word vary,
> there are 48 bits that can be used to encode meta-data.  As long as
> meta-data is limited to certain allowable values, this provides a mechani=
sm
> for error detection, similar to a checksum.
>
> *Benefits of Suggested Implementation*
>
>    - The word length determines how the seed phrase should be
>    interpreted.  User only needs to know how many words they have and how=
 many
>    words the wallet supports to check for compatibility with this extensi=
on
>    - Uses same wordlist to represent the same entropy as a 12 word phrase
>    (could be a revision to BIP39 instead of a new BIP)
>    - Manual procedure is very simple, each derivation path can use a
>    shortened 256 word list which enjoys improved alphabetical separation =
of
>    words
>    - May prevent naive word selections which aren't limited to every
>    eighth word (similar to what checksum does)
>    - Can be extended further.  For example, a 32 word phrase with the
>    same entropy as a 24 word phrase could also be added.  We can keep add=
ing
>    formats with unique word length and keep adding uses for the meta data=
 as
>    needed.
>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><p dir=3D"ltr">Respectfully, a &quot;black box&quot; is no=
t trusted to generate mnemonic passphrases, the standard is well-defined an=
d generally followed across wallets.</p><p dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://g=
ithub.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki#Generating_the_mnemon=
ic">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki#Generati=
ng_the_mnemonic</a></p><p>Users can create their own mnemonics in a trustle=
ss way following the BIP39 standard published in 2013.=C2=A0</p><p>Using an=
y entropy source a user can perform a SHA256 hash on the entropy to get a 2=
56 bit string, then convert that to binary. Perform another SHA256 hash on =
the binary, take the first 8 bits and solve for checksum and then solve the=
 rest of mnemonic words.</p></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri=
, May 23, 2025, 6:15=E2=80=AFAM Eric Kvam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nerdyrugbyg=
uy@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nerdyrugbyguy@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b><u>Motivation</u>=
</b><div>Make it easy for users to manually create their seed phrase so tha=
t they don&#39;t have to trust a &quot;black box&quot; and allow for encodi=
ng derivation path in seed phrase to simplify recovery</div><div><br><div><=
div><b><u>How</u></b></div></div><div>Use every eighth word from the wordli=
st to generate 16 word phrases with 128 bits of entropy (no checksum).=C2=
=A0 The most significant eight bits of each word are used as entropy.=C2=A0=
 The least significant three bits of each word specify the derivation path.=
</div><div><ul><li><b>000</b> Derivation Path Not Specified</li><li><b>001<=
/b> m/44&#39;/0&#39;/0&#39;</li><li><b>010</b>  m/49&#39;/0&#39;/0&#39;</li=
><li><b>011</b> m/84&#39;/0&#39;/0&#39;</li><li><b>100</b>  m/48&#39;/0&#39=
;/0&#39;/2&#39;</li><li><b>101</b> m/86&#39;/0&#39;/0&#39;</li></ul><div>Up=
 to seven derivation paths can be specified if all words have the same leas=
t significant bits.=C2=A0 If the least significant bits of each word vary, =
there are 48 bits that can be used to encode meta-data.=C2=A0 As long as me=
ta-data is limited to certain allowable values, this provides a mechanism f=
or error detection, similar to a checksum.</div></div></div><div><br></div>=
<div><b><u>Benefits of Suggested Implementation</u></b></div><div><ul><li>T=
he word length determines how the seed phrase should be interpreted.=C2=A0 =
User only needs to know how many words they have and how many words the wal=
let supports to check for compatibility with this extension</li><li>Uses sa=
me wordlist to represent the same entropy as a 12 word phrase (could be a r=
evision to BIP39 instead of a new BIP)</li><li>Manual procedure is very sim=
ple, each derivation path can use a shortened 256 word list which enjoys im=
proved alphabetical separation of words</li><li>May prevent naive word sele=
ctions which aren&#39;t limited to every eighth word (similar to what check=
sum does)</li><li>Can be extended further.=C2=A0 For example, a 32 word phr=
ase with the same entropy as a 24 word phrase could also be added.=C2=A0 We=
 can keep adding formats with unique word length and keep adding uses for t=
he meta data as needed.</li></ul></div>

<p></p>

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