1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
|
Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191]
helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
(envelope-from <john.dillon892@googlemail.com>) id 1UyRs9-0004ay-Ud
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:22:18 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of googlemail.com
designates 209.85.215.173 as permitted sender)
client-ip=209.85.215.173;
envelope-from=john.dillon892@googlemail.com;
helo=mail-ea0-f173.google.com;
Received: from mail-ea0-f173.google.com ([209.85.215.173])
by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
(Exim 4.76) id 1UyRs9-0005SC-45
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:22:17 +0000
Received: by mail-ea0-f173.google.com with SMTP id g15so7383024eak.18
for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
Sun, 14 Jul 2013 12:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.14.38.14 with SMTP id z14mr56251688eea.49.1373829730783;
Sun, 14 Jul 2013 12:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.223.12.131 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Jul 2013 12:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAC1+kJMyvKnUKm8xTjzUK_5iq_VZM=iX17aCCd9vqe7jsYUJfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130705140140.GA23949@netbook.cypherspace.org>
<20130712131815.GA18716@petertodd.org>
<CAC1+kJOerE75+rtMHiy27aDLwWC9juAYva4u_iMVihnePTOYig@mail.gmail.com>
<20130713184227.GA5902@netbook.cypherspace.org>
<CAC1+kJMyvKnUKm8xTjzUK_5iq_VZM=iX17aCCd9vqe7jsYUJfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:22:10 +0000
Message-ID: <CAPaL=UVmr1zng6QtngkY-Y+fP+E67NST7MYRpkSHfjtwZ7PFNw@mail.gmail.com>
From: John Dillon <john.dillon892@googlemail.com>
To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Tim=F3n?= <jtimon@monetize.io>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
sender-domain
0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
(john.dillon892[at]googlemail.com)
-0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record
0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in
digit (john.dillon892[at]googlemail.com)
-0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from
author's domain
0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
not necessarily valid
-0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
X-Headers-End: 1UyRs9-0005SC-45
Cc: Bitcoin-Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] libzerocoin released,
what about a zerocoin-only alt-coin with either-or mining
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:22:18 -0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Jorge Tim=F3n <jtimon@monetize.io> wrote:
> All the arguments in favor of this pegging use zerocoin's point of
> view. Sure it would be much better for it, but are additional costs to
> the bitcoin network and you cannot do it with every chain.
Seems that Peter is describing a system that requires no changes at all to =
the
Bitcoin codebase and thus there are no costs whatsoever.
Peter: I'm a bit confused by this concept of "bi-directional sacrifice" tho=
ugh,
I assume there exists only a sacrifice in one direction right? Wouldn't sel=
ling
a zerocoin be just a matter of giving zerocoin a rule so that the zerocoin =
tx
moving it to the new owner only happens if a specific form of bitcoin tx
happens too?
> Merged mining is not mining the coin for free. The total reward (ie
> btc + frc + nmc + dvc) should tend to equal the mining costs. But the
> value comes from demand, not costs. So if people demand it more it
> price will rise no matter how is mined. And if the price rises it will
> make sense to spend more on mining.
> "Bitcoins are worth because it costs to mine them" is a Marxian labor
> thory of value argument.
> It's the other way arround as Menger taught us.
Merge mining is very much mining a coin for free. Ask not what the total re=
ward
is, ask that the marginal cost of merge mining an additional coin is. The i=
ssue
is that unless there is a cost to mining a *invalid* block the merge mined =
coin
has little protection from miners who mine invalid blocks, either malicious=
ly
or through negligence. If the coin isn't worth much, either because it's ma=
rket
value is low or the worth is negative to the malicious miner, your theories=
of
value have nothing to do with the issue.
Gregory Maxwell has written about this issue before on the #bitcoin-dev IRC
channel and on bitcointalk as well if memory serves. I advise you to look u=
p
his description of the problem, almost everything he writes on the topic of
crypto-coin theory is spot-on correct.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJR4vpGAAoJEEWCsU4mNhiPwu0IAMrzkVfI0CQuNJRCR+jwhNts
juEerApSSpBes6CjLBJJYZWDdMReSl6izqNDancnJygYc+Q5/IkwBispyZyeIVqY
HbV+jyAFQeVaJBZp8N+ZUDfN9/35SkPb4Y30dkq6V76hBfl+59bWq4qG0dhiO915
SBWAUPLspb5GOyu494GJUr4SPzgs9mAKfNGeQR2anOLj8Qam8Khfa4Zm5T5dX8WQ
vBunUCLykPvWBC3nuTDBU5gQu4TGW9ivGB4p6yLr7MyaPQYZEnYGqgU/yIfAhnBj
MfIfs6njPwhGMwteNmwLoS0VLRBFjWZDflquJ0NK6mNLR3c9yjOFMFPTTZFVinQ=3D
=3Db40P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
|
