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From: Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Libconsensus separated repository (was Bitcoin
	Core and hard forks)
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> On Aug 21, 2015, at 21:46, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <jtimon@jtimon.cc> wrote:
>=20
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:35 AM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com =
<mailto:tamas@bitsofproof.com>> wrote:
>> Every re-implementation, re-factoring even copy-paste introduces a =
risk of disagreement,
>> but also open the chance of doing the work better, in the sense of =
software engineering.
>=20
> But you don't want something better, you want something functionally =
identical.
> You may want to watch sipa's explanation on why "the implementation is
> the specification" and the reasons to separate libconsensus:
> https://youtu.be/l3O4nh79CUU?t=3D764 =
<https://youtu.be/l3O4nh79CUU?t=3D764>

I do want something better, but not for the focus you have.

Not because what you produce was not high quality, but because quality =
is achieved at a very
high cost and is hard to uphold over generations of developer. You focus =
on a single use case
while there are many out there for distributed ledgers.

I think in an infrastructure for enterprise applications, building =
consensus on the ledger is a
cornerstone there, but is only a piece of the solution. I built several =
commercially successful
deployments where I delegated the consensus building to a border router, =
a Bitcoin Core,
then interfaced that trusted peer with my  implementation that accepted =
Core=E2=80=99s decisions
in an SPV manner. One might think of this setup as wasteful and =
unsuitable for =E2=80=9Csmall devices=E2=80=9D
therefore an example of centralization people here try to avoid.

Enterprises have sufficient resources. Solving the business problem is =
valuable to them even at
magnitudes higher cost than a hobbyist would bear.

For mainstream adoption you need to get enterprises on board too, and  =
that is what I care of.
Enterprises want code that is not only high quality, but is easy to =
maintain with a development
team with high attrition. One has to take whatever help is offered for =
that, and one is modern
languages and runtimes.

Bits of Proof=E2=80=99s own implementation of the scripts was not =
practically relevant in my commercially
successful deployments, because of the use of a border router, but it =
helped development,
enabling easier debug and precise error feedback esp. end even after =
Core had a reject message.

I integrated libconsensus only for the hope that is significantly =
fastens application side tx verification,
 which it has turned out it does not, until secp265k1 is integrated.

I would likely use an other extended libconsensus too, but do not think =
there was a dependency on
that for enterprise development.

It would help there more to have a slim protocol server, no wallet, no =
rpc, no qt but a high
performance remoting API.

> Since you already depend on libconsensus for VerifyScript, wouldn't it
> be nice that it also offered VerifyTx, VerifyHeader and VerifyBlock?
> You would still have complete control over storage, concurrency,
> networking, policy...
> My plan is for the C API to interface with the external storage by
> passing a function pointer to it.


Storage and validation is non-trivially interconnected, but I now the =
separation can be done,
since I did it.

Excuse me, but function pointers is a pattern I used in the 80=E2=80=99s. =
I know that they are behind
the curtain of modern abstractions with similar use, I still prefer not =
to see them again.

Tamas Blummer


--Apple-Mail=_03E79B10-48E5-4696-8CD0-8A433D1AD39B
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 21, 2015, at 21:46, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jtimon@jtimon.cc" class=3D"">jtimon@jtimon.cc</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:35 AM, Tamas Blummer =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:tamas@bitsofproof.com" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">tamas@bitsofproof.com</a><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">&gt; wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Every =
re-implementation, re-factoring even copy-paste introduces a risk of =
disagreement,<br class=3D"">but also open the chance of doing the work =
better, in the sense of software engineering.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">But you don't want =
something better, you want something functionally identical.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">You may want to watch sipa's explanation on why =
"the implementation is</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">the specification" and the =
reasons to separate libconsensus:</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://youtu.be/l3O4nh79CUU?t=3D764" =
class=3D"">https://youtu.be/l3O4nh79CUU?t=3D764</a><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I do want =
something better, but not for the focus you have.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Not because what you produce was not high quality, =
but because quality is achieved at a very</div><div>high cost and is =
hard to uphold over generations of developer. You focus on a single use =
case</div><div>while there are many out there for distributed =
ledgers.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think in an =
infrastructure for enterprise applications, building consensus on the =
ledger is a&nbsp;</div><div>cornerstone there, but is only a piece of =
the solution. I built several commercially =
successful</div><div>deployments where I delegated the consensus =
building to a border router, a Bitcoin Core,&nbsp;</div><div>then =
interfaced that trusted peer with my &nbsp;implementation that accepted =
Core=E2=80=99s decisions&nbsp;</div><div>in an SPV manner. One might =
think of this setup as wasteful and unsuitable for =E2=80=9Csmall =
devices=E2=80=9D</div><div>therefore an example of centralization people =
here try to avoid.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Enterprises have =
sufficient resources. Solving the business problem is valuable to them =
even at&nbsp;</div><div>magnitudes higher cost than a hobbyist would =
bear.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>For mainstream adoption you =
need to get enterprises on board too, and &nbsp;that is what I care =
of.&nbsp;</div><div>Enterprises want code that is not only high quality, =
but is easy to maintain with a development&nbsp;</div><div>team with =
high attrition. One has to take whatever help is offered for that, and =
one is modern&nbsp;</div><div>languages and runtimes.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><div>Bits of Proof=E2=80=99s own implementation of =
the scripts was not practically relevant in my =
commercially</div><div>successful deployments, because of the use of a =
border router, but it helped development,&nbsp;</div><div>enabling =
easier debug and precise error feedback esp. end even after Core had a =
reject message.&nbsp;</div></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
integrated libconsensus only for the hope that is significantly fastens =
application side tx verification,</div><div>&nbsp;which it has turned =
out it does not, until secp265k1 is integrated.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I would likely use an other extended libconsensus =
too, but do not think there was a dependency on&nbsp;</div><div>that for =
enterprise development.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It =
would help there more to have a slim protocol server, no wallet, no rpc, =
no qt but a high&nbsp;</div><div>performance remoting API.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Since you already depend =
on libconsensus for VerifyScript, wouldn't it</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">be nice that it also offered VerifyTx, =
VerifyHeader and VerifyBlock?</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">You would still have =
complete control over storage, concurrency,</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">networking, policy...</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">My plan is for the C API to interface with the =
external storage by</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">passing a function pointer =
to it.</span></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Storage and validation is non-trivially =
interconnected, but I now the separation can be done,</div><div =
class=3D"">since I did it.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Excuse me, but function pointers is a =
pattern I used in the 80=E2=80=99s. I know that they are =
behind&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">the curtain of modern abstractions =
with similar use, I still prefer not to see them again.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Tamas =
Blummer</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""></blockquote></div></div></body></html>=

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