summaryrefslogtreecommitdiff
path: root/6f/af0b81c4c47ca26c5f709e7fc2044c2b34ae70
blob: c2e245e8d865825cd2720cf40fe5428f7fc31a55 (plain)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
Return-Path: <shymaa.arafat@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::133])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0C7C000E;
 Fri, 20 Aug 2021 05:45:49 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5692B401B2;
 Fri, 20 Aug 2021 05:45:49 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.199
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
 SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new);
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id HYFCU00lCp00; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 05:45:45 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com
 [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23E0E400D9;
 Fri, 20 Aug 2021 05:45:45 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id n5so6599345pjt.4;
 Thu, 19 Aug 2021 22:45:45 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
 h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to
 :cc; bh=PrHBw3dx1oFexsTr4rXR24jU09QFyWORRvwRzEWEfHI=;
 b=Y3B1qdjMSXRSEjlkU69cpEmgujqFER0J0Shk2xjE0Cdhv39tbMgMn5adMQNQqSAZdK
 09EADcgDgmB9BihHWmazrTZQQVY7I2EfrTb0ifJ56ZKjtNGhRR1m1jiPPell6A38IoXV
 K3RJk2t86cH7MbbPGAh4PJL9QLBV998iZrESbDQkKoXEIhBXBrBU004j/OMWixVCZQwm
 VtXbyCuk3r16UFJ8aDQJmnDa78oVY+P8T/uztMD3oYom4teVlCo3QvzwedfS/+zmzxV2
 F/8/ajpeH2BRgrOJ1/qaDQB1o5KTqdHhpDYkTIzS+KshtVLDwK8XrqWl0plpVxZHt8Rf
 nCTQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
 h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
 :message-id:subject:to:cc;
 bh=PrHBw3dx1oFexsTr4rXR24jU09QFyWORRvwRzEWEfHI=;
 b=LpRlWExWe0Jqf3gP85jHm/xk3OWfQE/Miagd3e+hk/quLrJiwxxe37g1DN03JreLWS
 h/COtCwaabFa3912LfZwy8E5YWAjmQ402ndFW463W8EG0uHQ9DFMK16dhbaBKvyNiH+q
 kljJ3USMUP+MNHcX23iua7EtxJIqKx6WEovmBtTZ4NMVgr8W/O3HR3st+u+ZHLPzTjXE
 wVPQ/If5F/jHfm4sGKJe9kbkk5biuidi4ncz63DZ/Os2BnNw5g0T7xiJlLMkjBac95fy
 g2ks4TkMQ3uTEvq9qiWTcb6my4GyWeCMbY2FI5mGhrVwitc7hrQbZiQkS3BM7aUfAb0g
 nGVg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vmxlSIweP1hj/ToPK4XSp73hlKQYMGuaWK/Cw+NMwjZNwwVTV
 l/sWcURmjJvhl0aJE4/MvjlX3SVGng2vnaz2xiE=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy8zrXxapQYvpEUR4PlDpyXqJEgUtHPyBCay5CUd9Ek9Rm59VBJTDcPh6X1jOzZIyRF4elKWrce9qWFSk6+P4Y=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:604e:: with SMTP id
 h14mr2844335pjm.181.1629438344531; 
 Thu, 19 Aug 2021 22:45:44 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAD5xwhjFBjvkMKev_6HFRuRGcZUi7WjO5d963GNXWN4n-06Pqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALZpt+F9FScaLsvXUozdBL4Ss8r71-gtUS_Fh9i53cK_rSGBeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210810061441.6rg3quotiycomcp6@ganymede>
 <CALZpt+G0CRitWLwUTA+7NnnZWNNrsEmFTMW3VmFSQ=vzXZOQGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210812220339.GA3416@erisian.com.au>
 <CAD5xwhiEDa2KjF265iDZ1ism4AFzh3S3D4cJSESVVKNwv9L7zA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAD5xwhiEDa2KjF265iDZ1ism4AFzh3S3D4cJSESVVKNwv9L7zA@mail.gmail.com>
From: shymaa arafat <shymaa.arafat@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 07:45:31 +0200
Message-ID: <CAM98U8nmzHOGNS63sw9C_U-capnaOBuMLYzOHaX7YMuk91JO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jeremy <jlrubin@mit.edu>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b591ac05c9f72dee"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 08:23:17 +0000
Cc: lightning-dev <lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Removing the Dust Limit
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 05:45:49 -0000

--000000000000b591ac05c9f72dee
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 06:52 Jeremy via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> one interesting point that came up at the bitdevs in austin today that
> favors remove that i believe is new to this discussion (it was new to me):
>
> the argument can be reduced to:
>
> - dust limit is a per-node relay policy.
> - it is rational for miners to mine dust outputs given their cost of
> maintenance (storing the output potentially forever) is lower than their
> immediate reward in fees.
>
-Here, u  r assuming miners not running full nodes, or even stateless nodes
as in Utreexo
-otherwise they suffer from storing dust UTXOS/their effect on proof
length, right?

- if txn relaying nodes censor something that a miner would mine, users
> will seek a private/direct relay to the miner and vice versa.
> - if direct relay to miner becomes popular, it is both bad for privacy and
> decentralization.
> - therefore the dust limit, should there be demand to create dust at
> prevailing mempool feerates, causes an incentive to increase network
> centralization (immediately)
>
> the tradeoff is if a short term immediate incentive to promote network
> centralization is better or worse than a long term node operator overhead.
>
>
> ///////////////////
>
> my take is that:
>
> 1) having a dust limit is worse since we'd rather not have an incentive to
> produce or roll out centralizing software, whereas not having a dust limit
> creates an mild incentive for node operators to improve utreexo
> decentralizing software.
>
Why not having dust limit improves Utreexo, I think (and tried to suggest
many times) separate storing of dust&other non spendable UTXOS (and their
hashes) so that they do not affect other UTXOS proofs ( and not brought
into main memory unless called as a TXO)

2) it's hard to quantify the magnitude of the incentives, which does matter.
>
I honestly don't get the long term perspective of miners Incentivised to
storing small dust UTXOS instead of having their values added to the fee.

> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

--000000000000b591ac05c9f72dee
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 06:52 Jeremy via bitcoin-dev &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">one interesting point=
 that came up at the bitdevs in austin today that favors remove that i beli=
eve is new to this discussion (it was new to me):</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">the argument =
can be reduced to:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">- dust limit is a per-node relay policy.</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">- it is rational for miners to mine d=
ust outputs given their cost of maintenance=C2=A0(storing the output potent=
ially forever) is lower than their immediate reward in fees.</div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">-Here, u=C2=A0 r assuming miners no=
t running full nodes, or even stateless nodes as in Utreexo</div><div dir=
=3D"auto">-otherwise they suffer from storing dust UTXOS/their effect on pr=
oof length, right?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">- if txn relaying nodes censor something tha=
t a miner would mine, users will seek a private/direct relay to the miner a=
nd vice versa.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">- if direct relay t=
o miner becomes popular, it is both bad for privacy and decentralization.</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">- therefore the dust limit, should =
there be demand to create dust at prevailing mempool feerates, causes an in=
centive to increase network centralization=C2=A0(immediately)</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">t=
he tradeoff is if a short term immediate incentive to promote network centr=
alization is better or worse than a long term node operator overhead.</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0=
,0,0)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">///////////////////</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rg=
b(0,0,0)">my take is that:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">1)=C2=A0having a dust limit is worse=
 since we&#39;d rather not have an incentive to produce or roll out central=
izing software, whereas not having a dust limit creates an mild incentive f=
or node operators to improve utreexo decentralizing software.</div></div></=
blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">Why not having dust limit improves=
 Utreexo, I think (and tried to suggest many times) separate storing of dus=
t&amp;other non spendable UTXOS (and their hashes) so that they do not affe=
ct other UTXOS proofs ( and not brought into main memory unless called as a=
 TXO)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">2) it&#39;s hard to quantify the magnitude of the incenti=
ves, which does matter.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">I honestly don&#39;t get the long term perspective of miners Incentivise=
d to storing small dust UTXOS instead of having their values added to the f=
ee.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000b591ac05c9f72dee--