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From: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 08:34:07 +0200
Message-ID: <CACkWPs99nqCDpdTdADAMnWHaEO55a6jK+-dk0=3M0BsDcveAAQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
	danger
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If fullRBF would become default and this would become dominant, zero-conf
acceptance would become extremely difficult and would impact significantly
this market share because its not the everyday users who would actually
worry about it however the attackers would be all over it.

As it is today the network has brief periods of stress when trxs are
delayed but in general clears regularly and from time to time there is
stress. Today actors' wallets and merchants etc already have the option of
RBF.
________________________________

Daniel Lipshitz
GAP600| www.gap600.com
Phone: +44 113 4900 117
Skype: daniellipshitz123
Twitter: @daniellipshitz


On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:04 AM Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com> wrote:

> There has never been any enforcement of miner preferences.   The
> convention is changing quickly, since miners are squeezed for cash and want
> to capture every nickel, plus there are bounties for full rbf being posted
> every day.
>
> I would suggest considering to continue doing business, as usual, as if
> full rbf is present.
>
> This means:
>
> - managing risk
> - waiting for confirmations if the risk is too high
> - using lightning if possible
>
> No other coin or chain offers a safer way to do business than lightning
> over bitcoin.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 7:32 AM Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> HI All
>>
>> I am the CEO of GAP600. We guarantee zero confirmed Bitcoin and other
>> crypto  transactions, BTC is a primary part of our business. Our guarantee
>> enables our customers to recognise zero-conf deposits. We reimburse our
>> clients value of the trx should we get it wrong and a transaction we
>> confirmed gets double spent.
>>
>> Should full RBF become default enabled and significantly adopted this
>> would have a major impact on the capacity to accept zerof confs on mainnet.
>> With the end result being this use case will be forced to move to a
>> different chain, with lightning being just another option.
>>
>> I wanted to share some statistics about how significant this use case is.
>> GAP600 clients are primarily payment processors and non custodial
>> liquidity providers; you can see some of our clients on our site
>> www.gap600.com. There are also merchants who have developed their own
>> tools so GAP600 statistics are only a subset of the full use case.
>>
>> I do not know of any wallet, exchange or custodian who accepts zero conf
>> without having some sort of solution in place. The market seems to be fully
>> aware of the risks of zero-conf. The opt-RBF seems to be a solution which
>> gives a clear free choice for actors.
>>
>> Statistics for consideration as a sample of the zero conf use case -
>>
>>
>>    1. As of end of Nov 2022 - GAP600 has processed i.e responded to
>>    circa 15M transactions
>>    2. These transactions have a cumulative value of 2.3B USD value.
>>    3. We currently are seeing circa 1.5M transactions queired per month.
>>
>>
>> It's a sizable amount of trxs on mainet and we are by no means the full
>> market of platforms accepting zero-conf.  I realise there are other
>> considerations which BTC has,  I would urge you to take into account the
>> major risk being placed on this significant market share when deciding to
>> make this feature default enabled and encouraging full adoption.
>>
>> Thank you for your consideration
>> Daniel
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Daniel Lipshitz
>> GAP600| www.gap600.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">If fullRBF would become default and this would become domi=
nant, zero-conf acceptance would become extremely difficult and would impac=
t significantly this market share because its not the everyday users who wo=
uld actually worry about it however the attackers would=C2=A0be all over it=
.<div><br></div><div>As it is today the network has brief periods of stress=
 when trxs are delayed but in general clears regularly and from time to tim=
e there is stress. Today actors&#39; wallets and merchants=C2=A0etc already=
 have the option of RBF.<br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm=
ail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">_____________________________=
___</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:=
12.8px"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Daniel Lipshitz</font></div><div =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-seri=
f">GAP600|=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.gap600.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.ga=
p600.com</a></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><=
font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Phone:=C2=A0</font><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">+44 113 4900 117</span></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif=
">Skype: daniellipshitz123</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Twitter: @daniellipshitz</fo=
nt></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:=
04 AM Erik Aronesty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:erik@q32.com">erik@q32.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">There has never been any enforcement of miner preferences.=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0The convention is changing quickly, since miners are squeezed for cas=
h and want to capture=C2=A0every nickel, plus there are bounties for full r=
bf being posted every day.<div><br></div><div>I would suggest considering t=
o continue doing business, as usual, as if full rbf is present.</div><div><=
br></div><div>This means:<br><br>- managing risk</div><div>- waiting for co=
nfirmations if the risk is too high</div><div>- using lightning if possible=
</div><div><br></div><div>No other coin or chain offers=C2=A0a safer way to=
 do business than lightning over bitcoin.</div><div><br></div><div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 7:32 AM Daniel Lipshit=
z via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>HI All<div><br></div><div>I am the CEO of GAP600. We guarantee zero confir=
med Bitcoin and other crypto=C2=A0 transactions, BTC is a primary part of o=
ur business. Our guarantee enables our customers to recognise zero-conf dep=
osits. We reimburse our clients value of the trx should we get it wrong and=
 a transaction we confirmed gets double spent.</div><div><br></div><div>Sho=
uld full RBF become default enabled and significantly adopted this would ha=
ve a major impact on the capacity to accept zerof confs on mainnet. With th=
e end result being this use case will be forced to move to a different chai=
n, with lightning being just another=C2=A0option.</div><div><br></div><div>=
I wanted to share some statistics about how significant this use case is.=
=C2=A0</div><div>GAP600 clients are primarily payment processors and non cu=
stodial liquidity=C2=A0providers; you can see some of our clients on our si=
te <a href=3D"http://www.gap600.com" target=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</a>. =
There are also merchants who have developed their own tools so GAP600 stati=
stics are only a subset of the full use case.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><di=
v>I do not know of any wallet, exchange or custodian who accepts zero conf =
without having some sort of solution=C2=A0in place. The market seems to be =
fully aware of the risks of zero-conf. The opt-RBF seems to be a solution w=
hich gives a clear free choice for actors.</div><div><br></div><div>Statist=
ics for consideration as a sample of the zero conf use case -=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><ol><li>As of end of Nov 2022 - GAP600 has processed i.e =
responded to circa 15M transactions</li><li>These transactions have a cumul=
ative value of 2.3B USD value.=C2=A0</li><li>We currently are seeing circa =
1.5M transactions queired per month.=C2=A0</li></ol></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>It&#39;s a sizable amount of trxs on mainet and we are by no means the f=
ull market of platforms accepting zero-conf.=C2=A0=C2=A0I realise there are=
 other considerations which BTC has,=C2=A0 I would urge you to take into ac=
count the major risk being placed on this significant market share when dec=
iding to make this feature default enabled and encouraging=C2=A0full adopti=
on.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for your consideration</div><div>Dan=
iel</div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=
=3D"font-size:12.8px">________________________________</div><div style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"ta=
homa, sans-serif">Daniel Lipshitz</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8p=
x;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">GAP600|=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"http://www.gap600.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</a></font></di=
v><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div></div></div></=
div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

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