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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Dynamic MaxBlockSize - 3 Byte Solution
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NACK
1.- At some point in time, fees will need to be the the main part of the rew=
ard of miners, so, I do not see any need to lower them. If we keep them fore=
ver low, the network will be less and less secure because of the halvings.
2.- I think this change involves a Hard Fork (please correct me if I am wron=
g). In my opinion, the risk of a HF is not worth it.
3.- And more important for me, If blocks get bigger and bigger it would hurt=
decentralization which is absolutely key for Bitcoin to be valuable.
Alberto
> El 8 nov 2019, a las 16:54, Joachim Str=C3=B6mbergson via bitcoin-dev <bit=
coin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> escribi=C3=B3:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> While I agree on NACKing the proposal as it does not add anything new and f=
undamentally misunderstands what scaling is (or is not in this case), I disa=
gree with the claim that we do not need to deal with block size issue in the=
future any more. Segwit increased our possibilities on how to use the space=
more efficiently, but so far it did not completely. It's yet to be seen if a=
dvanced offchain constructions such as channel factories are enough. At this=
moment to claim that would be very bold and hardly justified.
>=20
>=20
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>=20
> =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original M=
essage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90
>> On Friday, November 8, 2019 2:36 PM, Emil Engler via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin=
-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> NACK!
>> 1. We have Lightning and SegWit so thankfully we do not need to deal with=
blocksizes anymore really.
>> 2. What if a reorg happens? Then it could generate huge problems at the v=
alidation.
>>=20
>> Correct me if I understood it wrong please.
>>=20
>> Greetings,
>> Emil Engler
>>=20
>> Trevor Groves via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> sch=
rieb am Fr. 8. Nov. 2019 um 15:26:
>>> Dynamic MaxBlockSize - 3 Byte Solution
>>> "DMBS"
>>>=20
>>> If=20
>>> (Last TOTAL Block Trans fees) > (AVG (Last 100 Blocks Trans Fees))
>>> AND
>>> current MaxBlockSize =3D> 0.99 MB =20
>>> AND=20
>>> MaxBlockSize has not changed in 10 Blocks
>>> ** see error catch below
>>> Then =20
>>> ON (Current Block # + 9) Set MaxBlockSize =3D (MaxBlockSize x 1.1)
>>> ELSE =20
>>> AT (Current Block # + 9) Set MaxBlockSize =3D (MaxBlockSize / 1.1)
>>> ELSEIF=20
>>> (current MaxBlockSize =3D< 0.99 or current MaxBlockSize > 6553.5 MB)
>>> Null (no action taken)
>>> **where 9 above represents the ActivateONBlock (software side) Variable
>>> -------------
>>> We add this 3 Byte Variable Factor to the white space in the Current Blo=
ck.
>>>=20
>>> eg. this 3 byte HEX 19000A
>>> the first bit "1" can be 1,2 or 0 =20
>>> 1 =3D increase future block (9 blocks ahead)
>>> 2 decrease future block (9 blocks ahead)
>>> 0 No Action (rules evaluate to null)
>>> **where 9 above represents the ActivateONBlock (software side) Variable
>>> --------------
>>> The Second bit is a Global Variable "9" represents a countdown to the se=
t value action, placed to synchronize network forward changes in "x" blocks=
. software lowers value if evaluates to True a second time and so on.=20
>>> ("Count down" if you will)
>>> the last 2 bytes represent the globally accepted "MaxBlockSize" Variabl=
e, and is distributed within each block moving forward in this rightmost (2 b=
yte) factor. In this case above,
>>> The variable portion "000A" (32 Bit value) represents decimal value 10 b=
eing 1.0 MB block.
>>> the decimal place is Always Assumed, and must be hard coded=20
>>> Because this presents a theoretical Max limit of "FFFF" or 6553.5 MB,=
We would=20
>>> have to add a last rule "only as a error catch"
>>> ** AND IF MaxBlockSize < 6553.5=20
>>> ---
>>> Increasing and decreasing
>>> On Every Block mined or distributed, the software can run the above rule=
set, Change the Variable and Distribute the next block " In Synchronized fa=
shion". The above rules when combined evaluate to a YES or NO, This translat=
es to a market reflection of increased system pressure or decreased market p=
ressure. I think we can agree, at peak periods the system chokes itself of=
f with fees and this is always only temporarily. So we can have the block, a=
nalyse system demand dynamically, and adjust on a globally agreed rule dynam=
ically by market driven demand.
>>> Considering the ruleset above also Decreases the Block ONLY if its grea=
ter than 0.99mb this brings size back to a competitive state /and size once m=
arket demand pressures subside, yet achieves the smallest market feasible bl=
ock size while also maintaining all current rule sets.
>>> An attacker would have to affect all block fees over the last 16 hours w=
orth of transactions to affect a 10% max block size increase but then only a=
fter waiting 1.5 hours, so long as nothing has changed in the last 1.5 hours=
and only for a limited amount of time. This approach also limits bloat. Thi=
s safety block window of 9 blocks provides a look forward and look behind va=
lue, in turn provides the network time to synchronize.=20
>>> 10 block sync window. This, by design, also limits changes to one chang=
e every 3 hours (20 blocks), if there is a market pressure "STATE" occurrin=
g.
>>> My Question to the community is. Will our current Block accommodate the 3=
Byte=20
>>> Variable, Is solving the Scaling issue worth using the 3 Bytes of space?=
=20
>>> I believe it is. =20
>>> --
>>> Software, Will need to Evaluate MaxBlockSize Variable, and ActivateONB=
lock Variable from the most recent distributed blocks DMBS 3 byte value.=20=
>>> Run the rules , get the answer set the now known MaxBlockSize Var and Pr=
opegate the "DMBS" value.=20
>>>=20
>>> As capacity limits are breached, I think the majority agree "we need to a=
gree". =20
>>>=20
>>> MaxBlockSize would provide a suitable middle ground and address concerns=
in a dynamic fashion, without compromising or changing existing security.=
=20
>>> Examples reflected in the blockchain 19000A rules has evaluates to t=
rue, increase expected in 9 blocks.1.0mb increases to 1.1mb
>>> if true for 9 more blocks MaxBlockSize Var becomes 18000A.. 17000A..,1=
6000A ..and so on if still true at 10000A var written becomes=20
>>> 00000B when read from left to right, 0-no change, in 0 blocks current "=
DMBS" value 000B or 1.1MB and stays that way 00000B until MaxBlockSize e=
valuates to "True" under a market pressure/ relief situation.=20
>>> I hope this makes sense, I would appreciate some feedback.=20
>>> TG
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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Content-Type: text/html;
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">NACK<div><br></div><div>1.- At some point i=
n time, fees will need to be the the main part of the reward of miners, so, I=
do not see any need to lower them. If we keep them forever low, the network=
will be less and less secure because of the halvings.</div><div>2.- I think=
this change involves a Hard Fork (please correct me if I am wrong). In my o=
pinion, the risk of a HF is not worth it.</div><div>3.- And more important f=
or me, If blocks get bigger and bigger it would hurt decentralization which i=
s absolutely key for Bitcoin to be valuable.</div><div><br><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Alberto<div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">E=
l 8 nov 2019, a las 16:54, Joachim Str=C3=B6mbergson via bitcoin-dev <bit=
coin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> escribi=C3=B3:<br><br></blockquote></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div>While I agree o=
n NACKing the proposal as it does not add anything new and fundamentally mis=
understands what scaling is (or is not in this case), I disagree with the cl=
aim that we do not need to deal with block size issue in the future any more=
. Segwit increased our possibilities on how to use the space more efficientl=
y, but so far it did not completely. It's yet to be seen if advanced offchai=
n constructions such as channel factories are enough. At this moment to clai=
m that would be very bold and hardly justified.<br></div><div><br></div><div=
class=3D"protonmail_signature_block"><div class=3D"protonmail_signature_blo=
ck-user protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div><div class=3D"protonmail=
_signature_block-proton">Sent with <a href=3D"https://protonmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ProtonMail</a> Secure Email.<br></div></div><div><br></div><div>=
=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Mes=
sage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90<br></di=
v><div> On Friday, November 8, 2019 2:36 PM, Emil Engler via bitcoin-dev <=
;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:<br></div><div> <br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"protonmail_quote" type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto">N=
ACK!<br></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">1. We have Lightning and SegWit so tha=
nkfully we do not need to deal with blocksizes anymore really.<br></div><div=
dir=3D"auto">2. What if a reorg happens? Then it could generate huge proble=
ms at the validation.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Correct me if I understood it wrong please.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">Greetings,<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Emil Engler<br=
></div><div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">Trevo=
r Groves via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> schrieb am Fr. 8. No=
v. 2019 um 15:26:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204=
); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
Dynamic MaxBlockSize - 3 Byte Solution<br></div><div>"DMBS"<br></div><=
div><div><br></div><div>If <br></div><div>(Last TOTAL Block Trans fees) =
; > (AVG (Last 100 Blocks Trans Fees))<br></div><div>AND<br></div><=
div>current MaxBlockSize =3D> 0.99 MB <br></div><div>AND <br>=
</div><div>MaxBlockSize has not changed in 10 Blocks<br></div><div>** see er=
ror catch below<br></div><div>Then <br></div><div>ON (Current Block # &=
nbsp;+ 9) Set MaxBlockSize =3D (MaxBlockSize x 1.1)<br></div><di=
v>ELSE <br></div><div>AT (Current Block # + 9) Set MaxBloc=
kSize =3D (MaxBlockSize / 1.1)<br></div><div>ELSEIF <br></div><d=
iv>(current MaxBlockSize =3D< 0.99 or current MaxBlockSize &g=
t; 6553.5 MB)<br></div><div>Null (no action taken)<br></div><div>**where 9 a=
bove represents the ActivateONBlock (software side) Variable<br></div><div>&=
nbsp;-------------<br></div><div>We add this 3 Byte Variable Factor to the w=
hite space in the Current Block.<br></div><div><br></div><div>eg. this=
3 byte HEX 19000A<br></div><div>the first bit "1" can be=
1,2 or 0 <br></div><div>1 =3D increase future bloc=
k (9 blocks ahead)<br></div><div>2 decrease future block (9 bloc=
ks ahead)<br></div><div>0 No Action (rules evaluate to null)<br=
></div><div>**where 9 above represents the ActivateONBlock (software side) V=
ariable<br></div><div>--------------<br></div><div>The Second bit is a Globa=
l Variable "9" represents a countdown to the set value action, placed to syn=
chronize network forward changes in "x" blocks. software lowers value i=
f evaluates to True a second time and so on. <br></div><div>("Cou=
nt down" if you will)<br></div><div>the last 2 bytes represent the glo=
bally accepted "MaxBlockSize" Variable, and is distributed within each block=
moving forward in this rightmost (2 byte) factor. In this case above,=
<br></div><div><div>The variable portion "000A" (32 Bit value) represe=
nts decimal value 10 being 1.0 MB block.<br></div><div>the decimal place is A=
lways Assumed, and must be hard coded <br></div><div>Because this presents a=
theoretical Max limit of "FFFF" or 6553.5 MB, We would <b=
r></div><div>have to add a last rule "only as a error catch"<br></div><div>&=
nbsp;** AND IF MaxBlockSize < 6553.5 <br></div><div>---<br></div><div>Inc=
reasing and decreasing<br></div><div>On Every Block mined or distributed, th=
e software can run the above rule set, Change the Variable and Distribute th=
e next block " In Synchronized fashion". The above rules when combined evalu=
ate to a YES or NO, This translates to a market reflection of increased syst=
em pressure or decreased market pressure. I think we can agree, at pe=
ak periods the system chokes itself off with fees and this is always only te=
mporarily. So we can have the block, analyse system demand dynamically=
, and adjust on a globally agreed rule dynamically by market driven demand.<=
br></div><div>Considering the ruleset above also Decreases the Block O=
NLY if its greater than 0.99mb this brings size back to a competitive state /=
and size once market demand pressures subside, yet achieves the smallest mar=
ket feasible block size while also maintaining all current rule sets.<br></d=
iv><div><div> An attacker would have to affect all block fees over the l=
ast 16 hours worth of transactions to affect a 10% max block size increase b=
ut then only after waiting 1.5 hours, so long as nothing has changed in the l=
ast 1.5 hours and only for a limited amount of time. This approach also limi=
ts bloat. This safety block window of 9 blocks provides a look forward and l=
ook behind value, in turn provides the network time to synchronize. <br></di=
v><div>10 block sync window. This, by design, also limits changes to o=
ne change every 3 hours (20 blocks), if there is a market pressure "ST=
ATE" occurring.<br></div><div>My Question to the community is. Will our curr=
ent Block accommodate the 3 Byte <br></div><div>Variable, Is solving the Sca=
ling issue worth using the 3 Bytes of space? <br></div><div>I believe i=
t is. <br></div><div>--<br></div><div>Software, Will need =
to Evaluate MaxBlockSize Variable, and ActivateONBlock Variable from the mos=
t recent distributed blocks DMBS 3 byte value. <br></div><div>Run the r=
ules , get the answer set the now known MaxBlockSize Var and Propegate the "=
DMBS" value. <br></div><div><br></div><div>As capacity limits are breached, I=
think the majority agree "we need to agree". <br></div></div><div><di=
v><br></div><div>MaxBlockSize would provide a suitable middle ground and add=
ress concerns in a dynamic fashion, without compromising or changing &=
nbsp;existing security. <br></div></div></div><div> Example=
s reflected in the blockchain 19000A rules has evaluates to =
; true, increase expected in 9 blocks.1.0mb increases to 1.1mb<br></div><div=
>if true for 9 more blocks
MaxBlockSize
Var becomes 18000A.. 17000A..,16000A ..and so on if still true a=
t 10000A var written becomes <br></div><div>00000B when read from left t=
o right, 0-no change, in 0 blocks current " DMBS" value 000B or 1.1MB&=
nbsp;
and stays that way
00000B
until MaxBlockSize evaluates to "True" under a market pressure/ relie=
f situation. <br></div><div>I hope this makes sense, I would appreciate=
some feedback. <br></div></div><div>TG<br></div></div><div>___________=
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ref=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" targe=
t=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><sp=
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