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From: Zheming Lin <heater@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 02:29:35 +0800
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To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Demonstration of Phase in Full Network
 Upgrade Activated by Miners
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Hi Jameson:

> =D4=DA 2017=C4=EA6=D4=C215=C8=D5=A3=AC01:20=A3=ACJameson Lopp =
<jameson.lopp@gmail.com <mailto:jameson.lopp@gmail.com>> =D0=B4=B5=C0=A3=BA=

>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Zheming Lin via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> > =D4=DA 2017=C4=EA6=D4=C214=C8=D5=A3=AC02:11=A3=ACGregory Maxwell =
<greg@xiph.org <mailto:greg@xiph.org>> =D0=B4=B5=C0=A3=BA
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:23 AM, Zheming Lin via bitcoin-dev
> > <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>=20
> > The enforcement of the system's rules by users broadly, and not just
> > miners, is specifically described in the white paper (section 8,
> > paragraph 2, it especially clear in the last sentence).  This is
> > critical for the security of Bitcoin especially with the current
> > degree of centralization in pools.  Without it, Bitcoin's security
> > would look a lot more like the Ripple system.
> >
>=20
> =CA=C7=B5=C4=A3=AC=D3=C3=BB=A7=D3=C0=D4=B6=B6=BC=D3=D0=D1=A1=D4=F1=A3=AC=
=B2=A2=BF=C9=D2=D4=C5=D7=C6=FA=C4=C7=D0=A9=BD=DA=B5=E3=A1=A3=D5=E2=B8=F6 =
BIP =
=B2=A2=C3=BB=D3=D0=B7=B4=B6=D4=D5=E2=D0=A9=D3=C3=BB=A7=D5=E2=C3=B4=D7=F6=A1=
=A3=D6=BB=D3=D0=C4=C7=D0=A9=B1=BB=B6=AF=B5=C4=C7=AE=B0=FC=D3=C3=BB=A7=A3=AC=
=CB=FB=C3=C7=D0=E8=D2=AA=D6=AA=B5=C0=B1=D8=D0=EB=D7=F6=B3=F6=D2=BB=B8=F6=D1=
=A1=D4=F1=A1=A3=A3=A8=B6=F8=B2=BB=CA=C7=B1=BB=B6=AF=B5=C4=B8=FA=CB=E6=C4=AC=
=C8=CF=B5=C4=B2=DF=C2=D4=A3=A9
> Yes, users always have choice that they can abandon the nodes. This =
BIP does=A1=AFt go against them. I mean only the one(especially wallets) =
that=A1=AFs passive, they need to know there=A1=AFs a choice and pick =
one.
>=20
> =D5=E2=B8=F6 BIP =
=BF=C9=D2=D4=B1=BB=D3=A6=D3=C3=D3=DA=BC=B8=BA=F5=C8=CE=BA=CE=B5=C4=C9=FD=BC=
=B6=C9=CF=A3=AC=B0=FC=C0=A8=B8=F4=C0=EB=BC=FB=D6=A4=A3=AC=C1=BD=D5=D7=B5=C4=
=B8=F4=C0=EB=BC=FB=D6=A4=A3=AC=C1=BD=D5=D7=C0=A9=C8=DD=A3=AC=D3=BF=CF=D6=B9=
=B2=CA=B6=A3=AC=B0=CB=D5=D7=C0=A9=C8=DD=B5=C8=A1=A3=B5=AB=D5=E2=D0=A9=C9=FD=
=BC=B6=B2=A2=B2=BB=CA=C7=D6=D8=B5=E3=A1=A3
> This BIP can be applied to almost any upgrade, including Segwit, =
Segwit2x, 2m, ec, 8m=A1=AD but the upgrade is not the key point.
>=20
> =B5=BD=B5=D7=CE=D2=C3=C7=B5=C4=D3=C3=BB=A7=CA=C7=B7=F1=D5=E6=B5=C4=D3=B5=
=D3=D0=D1=A1=D4=F1=A3=BF
> Did the users have any real choice?
>=20
> =
=CE=D2=B2=A2=B2=BB=C4=DC=C0=ED=BD=E2=CB=FB=C3=C7=CF=E0=D0=C5=B4=F3=B2=BF=B7=
=D6=BF=F3=B9=A4=A3=A8=BE=CD=CF=F1=B5=B1=C7=B0=D2=BB=D1=F9=A3=A9=A3=AC=B5=AB=
=BE=DC=BE=F8=D5=E2=D0=A9=B6=E0=CA=FD=BF=F3=B9=A4=B6=D4=D0=AD=D2=E9=B8=C4=B1=
=E4=B5=C4=CD=B6=C6=B1=BD=E1=B9=FB=A1=A3
> I don=A1=AFt see the reason they trust the majority miners(as they do =
today) but refuse the vote for upcoming protocol upgrade.
>=20
> To be clear, Bitcoin is not a democracy - if you find yourself using =
the term "voting" then you may be misunderstanding how consensus forms. =
Once a feature has been vetted and the code is deployed, miners may =
signal that they are ready to enforce new rules. If for some reason =
miners are too "passive or lazy" or wish to "veto" the activation of the =
new rules, users may choose to circumvent said veto by refusing to =
accept blocks that do not show readiness for enforcing the new rules.

How does the users show their opinion? They can fork away and leave. But =
what remains will be united. Are you afraid of the united users or the =
fork?

I agree with you that the =A1=B0vote=A1=B1 is not accurate. Could you =
kindly suggest an other word for that?

I think users should have choice to follow the miners or not. Do you =
agree with this or not?

> =20
>=20
> =
=B6=D4=C7=AE=B0=FC=D3=C3=BB=A7=B5=C4=D1=A1=D4=F1=A3=AC=CA=C7=CB=FB=C3=C7=CA=
=C7=B7=F1=CF=E0=D0=C5=B6=E0=CA=FD=BF=F3=B9=A4=A1=A3=C8=E7=B9=FB=CB=FB=C3=C7=
=B2=BB=CF=E0=D0=C5=A3=AC=BF=C9=D2=D4=CD=A8=B9=FD=B7=D6=B2=E6=C0=B4=CF=FB=B3=
=FD=B5=F4=BF=F3=B9=A4=A1=A3
> This choice for wallet users right now, is wether to follow the 51% =
majority miners. If they don=A1=AFt, they can have their fork that get =
rid of miners.
>=20
> =C8=E7=B9=FB=CB=FB=C3=C7=C8=D4=BE=C9=CF=E0=D0=C5=BF=F3=B9=A4=A3=AC=C4=C7=
=C3=B4=BF=C9=D2=D4=C1=F4=CF=C2=C0=B4=B2=A2=B8=FA=CB=E6=BF=F3=B9=A4=BD=AB=C0=
=B4=B5=C4=D0=AD=D2=E9=B8=C4=B1=E4=A1=A3
> If they do trust the majority miners, they stay and follow the vote =
for upcoming protocol upgrade.
>=20
> =
=CB=F9=D2=D4=CE=CA=CC=E2=D4=DA=D3=DA=A3=BA=B1=C8=CC=D8=B1=D2=B5=C4=BF=AA=B7=
=A2=D5=DF=A1=A2=D3=C3=BB=A7=A1=A2=D3=B5=D3=D0=D5=DF=A1=A2=B7=FE=CE=F1=CC=E1=
=B9=A9=D5=DF=A1=A2=C9=F5=D6=C1=BF=F3=B9=A4=A3=AC=CA=C7=B7=F1=A3=A8=C8=D4=C8=
=BB=A3=A9=C8=E7=B0=D7=C6=A4=CA=E9=D6=D0=C3=E8=CA=F6=B5=C4=B6=D4=B4=F3=B6=E0=
=CA=FD=BF=F3=B9=A4=D3=B5=D3=D0=D0=C5=C8=CE=A1=A3
> So the questions is: Do the bitcoin developers, users, holders, =
service provides, even miners, (still) have faith in the majority of =
miners as designed in the white paper?
>=20
> =20
> There is a fundamental misconception regarding this point - the white =
paper refers to majority hashpower needing to be honest with regard to =
determining the correct chain within the context of many possible =
/valid/ chain forks. It is not referring to using hashpower to determine =
the correct chain amongst an infinitely variable number of currently =
invalid chain forks. Bitcoin ecosystem participants should not have =
faith in miners (or any other entity) when it comes to choosing the =
consensus rules they wish to enforce.
>=20

Arrrgh. I think in the BIP, the miners just invalids tx version 1 =
temporarily. That=A1=AFs a =A1=B0soft fork=A1=B1 right? If they dislike =
the idea, they can leave as always.


Regards

LIN Zheming


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dgb2312"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><meta=
 http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dgb2312" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi Jameson:<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">=D4=DA 2017=C4=EA6=D4=C215=C8=D5=A3=AC01:20=A3=AC=
Jameson Lopp &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jameson.lopp@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">jameson.lopp@gmail.com</a>&gt; =D0=B4=B5=C0=A3=BA</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 9:39 AM, =
Zheming Lin via bitcoin-dev<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><span =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt; =D4=DA =
2017=C4=EA6=D4=C214=C8=D5=A3=AC02:11=A3=ACGregory Maxwell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:greg@xiph.org" class=3D"">greg@xiph.org</a>&gt; =D0=B4=B5=C0=
=A3=BA<br class=3D"">&gt;<br class=3D"">&gt; On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at =
2:23 AM, Zheming Lin via bitcoin-dev<br class=3D"">&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""></span><span class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt; The =
enforcement of the system's rules by users broadly, and not just<br =
class=3D"">&gt; miners, is specifically described in the white paper =
(section 8,<br class=3D"">&gt; paragraph 2, it especially clear in the =
last sentence).&nbsp; This is<br class=3D"">&gt; critical for the =
security of Bitcoin especially with the current<br class=3D"">&gt; =
degree of centralization in pools.&nbsp; Without it, Bitcoin's =
security<br class=3D"">&gt; would look a lot more like the Ripple =
system.<br class=3D"">&gt;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span>=CA=C7=B5=C4=A3=AC=D3=C3=BB=A7=D3=C0=D4=B6=B6=BC=D3=D0=D1=
=A1=D4=F1=A3=AC=B2=A2=BF=C9=D2=D4=C5=D7=C6=FA=C4=C7=D0=A9=BD=DA=B5=E3=A1=A3=
=D5=E2=B8=F6 BIP =B2=A2=C3=BB=D3=D0=B7=B4=B6=D4=D5=E2=D0=A9=D3=C3=BB=A7=D5=
=E2=C3=B4=D7=F6=A1=A3=D6=BB=D3=D0=C4=C7=D0=A9=B1=BB=B6=AF=B5=C4=C7=AE=B0=FC=
=D3=C3=BB=A7=A3=AC<wbr =
class=3D"">=CB=FB=C3=C7=D0=E8=D2=AA=D6=AA=B5=C0=B1=D8=D0=EB=D7=F6=B3=F6=D2=
=BB=B8=F6=D1=A1=D4=F1=A1=A3=A3=A8=B6=F8=B2=BB=CA=C7=B1=BB=B6=AF=B5=C4=B8=FA=
=CB=E6=C4=AC=C8=CF=B5=C4=B2=DF=C2=D4=A3=A9<br class=3D"">Yes, users =
always have choice that they can abandon the nodes. This BIP does=A1=AFt =
go against them. I mean only the one(especially wallets) that=A1=AFs =
passive, they need to know there=A1=AFs a choice and pick one.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">=D5=E2=B8=F6 BIP =
=BF=C9=D2=D4=B1=BB=D3=A6=D3=C3=D3=DA=BC=B8=BA=F5=C8=CE=BA=CE=B5=C4=C9=FD=BC=
=B6=C9=CF=A3=AC=B0=FC=C0=A8=B8=F4=C0=EB=BC=FB=D6=A4=A3=AC=C1=BD=D5=D7=B5=C4=
=B8=F4=C0=EB=BC=FB=D6=A4=A3=AC<wbr =
class=3D"">=C1=BD=D5=D7=C0=A9=C8=DD=A3=AC=D3=BF=CF=D6=B9=B2=CA=B6=A3=AC=B0=
=CB=D5=D7=C0=A9=C8=DD=B5=C8=A1=A3=B5=AB=D5=E2=D0=A9=C9=FD=BC=B6=B2=A2=B2=BB=
=CA=C7=D6=D8=B5=E3=A1=A3<br class=3D"">This BIP can be applied to almost =
any upgrade, including Segwit, Segwit2x, 2m, ec, 8m=A1=AD but the =
upgrade is not the key point.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=B5=BD=B5=D7=CE=D2=C3=C7=B5=C4=D3=C3=BB=A7=CA=C7=B7=F1=D5=E6=B5=
=C4=D3=B5=D3=D0=D1=A1=D4=F1=A3=BF<br class=3D"">Did the users have any =
real choice?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=CE=D2=B2=A2=B2=BB=C4=DC=C0=ED=BD=E2=CB=FB=C3=C7=CF=E0=D0=C5=B4=
=F3=B2=BF=B7=D6=BF=F3=B9=A4=A3=A8=BE=CD=CF=F1=B5=B1=C7=B0=D2=BB=D1=F9=A3=A9=
=A3=AC<wbr class=3D"">=B5=AB=BE=DC=BE=F8=D5=E2=D0=A9=B6=E0=CA=FD=BF=F3=B9=A4=
=B6=D4=D0=AD=D2=E9=B8=C4=B1=E4=B5=C4=CD=B6=C6=B1=BD=E1=B9=FB=A1=A3<br =
class=3D"">I don=A1=AFt see the reason they trust the majority miners(as =
they do today) but refuse the vote for upcoming protocol upgrade.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">To be clear, Bitcoin is not a democracy - if you find =
yourself using the term "voting" then you may be misunderstanding how =
consensus forms. Once a feature has been vetted and the code is =
deployed, miners may signal that they are ready to enforce new rules. If =
for some reason miners are too "passive or lazy" or wish to "veto" the =
activation of the new rules, users may choose to circumvent said veto by =
refusing to accept blocks that do not show readiness for enforcing the =
new rules.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">How does the users show their opinion? =
They can fork away and leave. But what remains will be united. Are you =
afraid of the united users or the fork?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I agree with you that the =A1=B0vote=A1=B1=
 is not accurate. Could you kindly suggest an other word for =
that?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think =
users should have choice to follow the miners or not. Do you agree with =
this or not?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><br =
class=3D"">=B6=D4=C7=AE=B0=FC=D3=C3=BB=A7=B5=C4=D1=A1=D4=F1=A3=AC=CA=C7=CB=
=FB=C3=C7=CA=C7=B7=F1=CF=E0=D0=C5=B6=E0=CA=FD=BF=F3=B9=A4=A1=A3=C8=E7=B9=FB=
=CB=FB=C3=C7=B2=BB=CF=E0=D0=C5=A3=AC<wbr =
class=3D"">=BF=C9=D2=D4=CD=A8=B9=FD=B7=D6=B2=E6=C0=B4=CF=FB=B3=FD=B5=F4=BF=
=F3=B9=A4=A1=A3<br class=3D"">This choice for wallet users right now, is =
wether to follow the 51% majority miners. If they don=A1=AFt, they can =
have their fork that get rid of miners.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=C8=E7=B9=FB=CB=FB=C3=C7=C8=D4=BE=C9=CF=E0=D0=C5=BF=F3=B9=A4=A3=
=AC<wbr class=3D"">=C4=C7=C3=B4=BF=C9=D2=D4=C1=F4=CF=C2=C0=B4=B2=A2=B8=FA=CB=
=E6=BF=F3=B9=A4=BD=AB=C0=B4=B5=C4=D0=AD=D2=E9=B8=C4=B1=E4=A1=A3<br =
class=3D"">If they do trust the majority miners, they stay and follow =
the vote for upcoming protocol upgrade.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=CB=F9=D2=D4=CE=CA=CC=E2=D4=DA=D3=DA=A3=BA=B1=C8=CC=D8=B1=D2=B5=
=C4=BF=AA=B7=A2=D5=DF=A1=A2=D3=C3=BB=A7=A1=A2=D3=B5=D3=D0=D5=DF=A1=A2=B7=FE=
=CE=F1=CC=E1=B9=A9=D5=DF=A1=A2<wbr =
class=3D"">=C9=F5=D6=C1=BF=F3=B9=A4=A3=AC=CA=C7=B7=F1=A3=A8=C8=D4=C8=BB=A3=
=A9=C8=E7=B0=D7=C6=A4=CA=E9=D6=D0=C3=E8=CA=F6=B5=C4=B6=D4=B4=F3=B6=E0=CA=FD=
=BF=F3=B9=A4=D3=B5=D3=D0=D0=C5=C8=CE=A1=A3<br class=3D"">So the =
questions is: Do the bitcoin developers, users, holders, service =
provides, even miners, (still) have faith in the majority of miners as =
designed in the white paper?<br class=3D""><span class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></blockquote><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">There is a fundamental misconception regarding this point - =
the white paper refers to majority hashpower needing to be honest with =
regard to determining the correct chain within the context of many =
possible /valid/ chain forks. It is not referring to using hashpower to =
determine the correct chain amongst an infinitely variable number of =
currently invalid chain forks. Bitcoin ecosystem participants should not =
have faith in miners (or any other entity) when it comes to choosing the =
consensus rules they wish to enforce.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Arrrgh. I think in the BIP, the miners =
just invalids tx version 1 temporarily. That=A1=AFs a =A1=B0soft fork=A1=B1=
 right? If they dislike the idea, they can leave as always.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regards</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LIN Zheming</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"h5"></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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