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To: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>,
	Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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From: Aymeric Vitte <vitteaymeric@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e38fd508-a6d6-acce-ba59-eaac4d69a42f@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 16:31:11 +0200
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Full node "tip" function
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Yes, as a whole, but I am sorry, your "tip" proposal is very very very
bad as it is, think a little bit more about your latest answer and you
will understand why

I am a bit perplexed sometimes about what is proposed on this list

Adding services paid by the miners is not a bad idea, like some
proposals that were posted here proposing some system to validate/format
the blocks for the miners

But, first, the highest priority is to scale the full nodes and this
cannot depend on miners, then once this is done we can imagine other
services on top of it paid by the miners or others (+lightning & co)

I have already explained many times my thoughts on the subject, I don't
pretend that they represent the perfect solution but at least it's
different from what we can read , so I think that the core dev team
should setup a task force/group to solve this quickly now, the
accumulation of strange proposals/workarounds here does not help

Because it's a real question for everybody in the current context
whether we can trust bitcoin or not, unfortunately the answer currently
tends toward the later, or please explain me why this statement could be
wrong


Le 04/05/2017 à 15:47, Erik Aronesty a écrit :
>  - Full nodes already perform many valuable services, and simply
> allowing people to pay for better service is something operators can
> do now - even without it being baked into bitcoind.   Paying for
> access to a higher-speed relay network, for example, is something that
> many operators would do.
>
> - Baking in the ability to add service fees could make more people
> *want* to run more high quality, highly available full nodes... which
> is really one of the most important things developers can be doing.
>
>
> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
>     Strange idea, incentiving people to run full nodes should
>     certainly not depend on miners, should certainly not involve
>     another wasteful pow and should certainly not encourage any
>     collusion between participants like miners are doing (ie full
>     nodes pools for example or miners creating full nodes pools)
>
>
>     Le 04/05/2017 à 12:38, Tomas via bitcoin-dev a écrit :
>>     The ones that *could* pay non-mining full nodes are miners/pools,
>>     by outsourcing transaction selection using a different PoW.  By
>>     doing so they could buy proof-of-uncensored-selection and
>>     proof-of-goodwill for a small fee.
>>
>>     We would allow full nodes to generate and broadcast a template
>>     block which:
>>
>>     * Does not contain a valid header yet
>>     * Contains the transaction selection
>>     * Contains a coinbase output with a predetermined part of the
>>     block reward (say 0.5%) to themselves
>>     * Contains a nonce for PoW of a predetermined currently ASIC
>>     resistant hash function behind a OP_RETURN.
>>
>>     The template with the highest PoW since the last block would be
>>     leading. A miner/pool can then choose to use this instead of
>>     their own, adding the rest of the reward and the SHA nonce
>>     themselves. That way they would set up a competition among full
>>     nodes.
>>
>>     This would of course be voluntary but provable, so maybe in a
>>     pool's interest to do this via naming and shaming.
>>
>>     Tomas
>>     bitcrust
>>
>>     On Wed, May 3, 2017, at 23:43, Ben Thompson via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>>     I feel like this would be pointless as the vast majority of
>>>     users would likely download the blockchain from a node that was
>>>     not enforcing a tip requirement as it would seem like
>>>     unnecessary cost as in protocols such as BitTorrent there is no
>>>     such tips in sharing files and the blockchain distribution is in
>>>     eccense the same thing. However perhaps I am underestimating the
>>>     generosity of node operators but I feel that adding a cost to
>>>     the blockchain (assuming that all users add a tip requirement)
>>>     would lead to centralisation.
>>>
>>>     On Wed, 3 May 2017, 22:21 Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev,
>>>     <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>     <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         IDEA:
>>>         - Full nodes advertise a bitcoin address.   Users that need
>>>         to download the block chain from that node can be encouraged
>>>         to send a tip to the peers that served them (by % served).  
>>>         Recommended tip of 10mbit should be fine.
>>>
>>>         - A full nodes can *require* a tip to download the
>>>         blockchain.  If they do, users that don't specify a tip
>>>         cannot use them.
>>>
>>>         CONS:
>>>
>>>         For some people, this may represent a barrier to hosting
>>>         their own full node.   After all, if you have to pay $15
>>>         just to get a copy of the blockchain, that just adds to the
>>>         already expensive prospect of hosting a full node.  
>>>         PROS:
>>>
>>>         As long as you manage to stay online, you should get your
>>>         money back and more.   This is the an incentive for quality,
>>>         long term hosting.
>>>         In the long term, this should cause stable nodes to stick
>>>         around longer.   It also discourages "installation spam"
>>>         attacks on the network.
>>>         Fees for other node operations can be considered if this is
>>>         successful.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>     bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>     <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>>     https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>     <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
>
>     -- 
>     Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets
>     <https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets>
>     Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
>     <https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets>
>     Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
>     Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
>     Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
>     Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
>     torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
>     <https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live>
>     node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
>     <https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor>
>     GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
>
>     _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev
>     mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>     <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>     https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>     <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev> 
>
-- 
Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets
Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms

--------------16B159E3BD1454891ACC1E8C
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<html>
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  </head>
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    <p>Yes, as a whole, but I am sorry, your "tip" proposal is very very
      very bad as it is, think a little bit more about your latest
      answer and you will understand why<br>
    </p>
    <p>I am a bit perplexed sometimes about what is proposed on this
      list</p>
    <p>Adding services paid by the miners is not a bad idea, like some
      proposals that were posted here proposing some system to
      validate/format the blocks for the miners</p>
    <p>But, first, the highest priority is to scale the full nodes and
      this cannot depend on miners, then once this is done we can
      imagine other services on top of it paid by the miners or others
      (+lightning &amp; co)<br>
    </p>
    <p>I have already explained many times my thoughts on the subject, I
      don't pretend that they represent the perfect solution but at
      least it's different from what we can read , so I think that the
      core dev team should setup a task force/group to solve this
      quickly now, the accumulation of strange proposals/workarounds
      here does not help</p>
    <p>Because it's a real question for everybody in the current context
      whether we can trust bitcoin or not, unfortunately the answer
      currently tends toward the later, or please explain me why this
      statement could be wrong<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 04/05/2017 à 15:47, Erik Aronesty a
      écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJowKgJiW4wZ_FnVPLLTYbA1B6xgswMD19-Tf1HmowpWqZEnPQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr"> - Full nodes already perform many valuable
        services, and simply allowing people to pay for better service
        is something operators can do now - even without it being baked
        into bitcoind.   Paying for access to a higher-speed relay
        network, for example, is something that many operators would do.<br>
        <div><br>
          - Baking in the ability to add service fees could make more
          people *want* to run more high quality, highly available full
          nodes... which is really one of the most important things
          developers can be doing.<br>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Aymeric
          Vitte via bitcoin-dev <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
              target="_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
              <p>Strange idea, incentiving people to run full nodes
                should certainly not depend on miners, should certainly
                not involve another wasteful pow and should certainly
                not encourage any collusion between participants like
                miners are doing (ie full nodes pools for example or
                miners creating full nodes pools)<br>
              </p>
              <div>
                <div class="h5"> <br>
                  <div class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-cite-prefix">Le
                    04/05/2017 à 12:38, Tomas via bitcoin-dev a écrit :<br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div>
                  <div class="h5">
                    <div>The ones that *could* pay non-mining full nodes
                      are miners/pools, by outsourcing transaction
                      selection using a different PoW.  By doing so they
                      could buy proof-of-uncensored-selection and
                      proof-of-goodwill for a small fee.<br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>We would allow full nodes to generate and
                      broadcast a template block which:<br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>* Does not contain a valid header yet<br>
                    </div>
                    <div>* Contains the transaction selection<br>
                    </div>
                    <div>* Contains a coinbase output with a
                      predetermined part of the block reward (say 0.5%)
                      to themselves<br>
                    </div>
                    <div>* Contains a nonce for PoW of a predetermined
                      currently ASIC resistant hash function behind a
                      OP_RETURN.<br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>The template with the highest PoW since the
                      last block would be leading. A miner/pool can then
                      choose to use this instead of their own, adding
                      the rest of the reward and the SHA nonce
                      themselves. That way they would set up a
                      competition among full nodes.<br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>This would of course be voluntary but provable,
                      so maybe in a pool's interest to do this via
                      naming and shaming.<br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Tomas<br>
                    </div>
                    <div>bitcrust<br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>On Wed, May 3, 2017, at 23:43, Ben Thompson via
                      bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div dir="ltr">I feel like this would be pointless
                        as the vast majority of users would likely
                        download the blockchain from a node that was not
                        enforcing a tip requirement as it would seem
                        like unnecessary cost as in protocols such as
                        BitTorrent there is no such tips in sharing
                        files and the blockchain distribution is in
                        eccense the same thing. However perhaps I am
                        underestimating the generosity of node operators
                        but I feel that adding a cost to the blockchain
                        (assuming that all users add a tip requirement)
                        would lead to centralisation.<br>
                      </div>
                      <div><span></span><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <div dir="ltr">On Wed, 3 May 2017, 22:21 Erik
                          Aronesty via bitcoin-dev, &lt;<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
                            target="_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;
                          wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>IDEA:<br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <div>- Full nodes advertise a bitcoin
                                  address.   Users that need to download
                                  the block chain from that node can be
                                  encouraged to send a tip to the peers
                                  that served them (by % served).  
                                  Recommended tip of 10mbit should be
                                  fine.<br>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>- A full nodes can *require* a tip to
                                download the blockchain.  If they do,
                                users that don't specify a tip cannot
                                use them.<br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div>CONS:<br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>For some people, this may represent a
                                barrier to hosting their own full
                                node.   After all, if you have to pay
                                $15 just to get a copy of the
                                blockchain, that just adds to the
                                already expensive prospect of hosting a
                                full node.   <br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>PROS: <br>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>As long as you manage to stay online,
                                you should get your money back and
                                more.   This is the an incentive for
                                quality, long term hosting.<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div>In the long term, this should cause
                                stable nodes to stick around longer.  
                                It also discourages "installation spam"
                                attacks on the network.<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>Fees for other node operations can be
                              considered if this is successful.<br>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <fieldset
                      class="m_-7268807749370062531mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                    <br>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <span class="">
                  <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a>
</pre>
    </span></blockquote><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
    

    <pre class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Zcash wallets made simple: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets" target="_blank">https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-<wbr>wallets</a>
Bitcoin wallets made simple: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets" target="_blank">https://github.com/Ayms/<wbr>bitcoin-wallets</a>
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/getblocklist" target="_blank">http://peersm.com/getblocklist</a>
Check the 10 M passwords list: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/findmyass" target="_blank">http://peersm.com/findmyass</a>
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://torrent-live.org" target="_blank">http://torrent-live.org</a>
Peersm : <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.peersm.com" target="_blank">http://www.peersm.com</a>
torrent-live: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live" target="_blank">https://github.com/Ayms/<wbr>torrent-live</a>
node-Tor : <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor" target="_blank">https://www.github.com/Ayms/<wbr>node-Tor</a>
GitHub : <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-7268807749370062531moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms" target="_blank">https://www.github.com/Ayms</a></pre>
  </font></span></div>


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bitcoin-dev mailing list

<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>

<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a>


</blockquote></div>
</div>



</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Zcash wallets made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets">https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets</a>
Bitcoin wallets made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets">https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets</a>
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/getblocklist">http://peersm.com/getblocklist</a>
Check the 10 M passwords list: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/findmyass">http://peersm.com/findmyass</a>
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://torrent-live.org">http://torrent-live.org</a>
Peersm : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.peersm.com">http://www.peersm.com</a>
torrent-live: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live">https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live</a>
node-Tor : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor">https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor</a>
GitHub : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms">https://www.github.com/Ayms</a></pre></body></html>
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