path: root/63/ab4a0212ddd57542f4b06971b5ad84fb792953

Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192]
	helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
	by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <mh.in.england@gmail.com>) id 1YJT2d-0002UF-Dz
	for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Thu, 05 Feb 2015 20:28:47 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com
	designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender)
	client-ip=74.125.82.181; envelope-from=mh.in.england@gmail.com;
	helo=mail-we0-f181.google.com; 
Received: from mail-we0-f181.google.com ([74.125.82.181])
	by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76) id 1YJT2Z-0003xq-PI
	for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Thu, 05 Feb 2015 20:28:47 +0000
Received: by mail-we0-f181.google.com with SMTP id k48so9788045wev.12
	for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
	Thu, 05 Feb 2015 12:28:37 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.180.101.65 with SMTP id fe1mr522079wib.66.1423168117718;
	Thu, 05 Feb 2015 12:28:37 -0800 (PST)
Sender: mh.in.england@gmail.com
Received: by 10.194.188.11 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Feb 2015 12:28:37 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CABdy8DKS4arkkCLGC=66SUJm5Ugib1EWP7B6MkQRX1k-yd3WBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABdy8DKS4arkkCLGC=66SUJm5Ugib1EWP7B6MkQRX1k-yd3WBw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 21:28:37 +0100
X-Google-Sender-Auth: FgXkVcl51Zd0sxE0WyNOFw8mp-Q
Message-ID: <CANEZrP3v=ySS4gragaWuBMWi_swocRRRq_kw2edo6+9kifgrFQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
To: Paul Puey <paul@airbitz.co>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d041826be1cc4cb050e5d2623
X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
	See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
	-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
	sender-domain
	0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
	(mh.in.england[at]gmail.com)
	-0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
	1.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
	0.1 DKIM_SIGNED            Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
	not necessarily valid
	-0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
	0.0 T_REMOTE_IMAGE         Message contains an external image
	-0.0 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
X-Headers-End: 1YJT2Z-0003xq-PI
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal for P2P Wireless (Bluetooth LE)
 transfer of Payment URI
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 20:28:47 -0000

--f46d041826be1cc4cb050e5d2623
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

BIP70 requests can be sent over bluetooth as well, as can transactions.
Bitcoin Wallet can already send money even when offline by doing this. It's
transparent to the user. I mean original Bluetooth in this context - BLE
has incredibly tight data constraints and isn't really meant for data
transfer.

Yes Android Beam has a pretty stupid UI. You can actually tap the devices,
take them away and then press, but that's not obvious at all. There have
been new APIs added in recent releases that give more control over this, so
it's possible we can revisit things and make the UI better these days.

The donation to live performer example is good - there's no issue of
accidentally paying for someone else in this context as there's only one
recipient, but many senders.

The issue of confused payments remains in other situations though.

For the coffee shop use case, it'd be nicer (I think) if we aim for a
Square-style UI where the device broadcasts a (link to) a photo of the user
combined with a bluetooth MAC. Then the merchant tablet can show faces of
people in the shop, and can push a payment request to the users device.
That device can then buzz the user, show a confirmation screen, put
something on their smart watch etc or just auto-authorise the payment
because the BIP70 signature is from a trusted merchant. User never even
needs to touch their phone at all.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 9:06 PM, Paul Puey <paul@airbitz.co> wrote:

> The BIP70 protocol would preclude individuals from utilizing the P2P
> transfer spec. It would also require that a Sender have internet
> connectivity to get the payment protocol info. BLE could enable payment w/o
> internet by first transferring the URI to from Recipient to Sender. Then in
> the future, we could sign a Tx and send it over BLE back to the recipient
> (who would still need internet to verify the Tx). This is an important use
> case for areas with poor 3G/4G connectivity as I've experience myself.
>
> Also, due to Android issues, NFC is incredibly clunky. The URI Sender is
> required to tap the screen *while* the two phones are in contact. We
> support NFC the same way Bitcoin Wallet does, but unless the payment
> recipient has a custom Android device (which a merchant might) then the
> usage model is worse than scanning a QR code. BLE also allows people to pay
> at a distance such as for a donation to a live performer. We'll look at
> adding this to the Motivation section.
>
> [image: logo]
> *Paul Puey* CEO / Co-Founder, Airbitz Inc
> +1-619-850-8624 | http://airbitz.co | San Diego
> <http://facebook.com/airbitz>  <http://twitter.com/airbitz>
> <https://plus.google.com/118173667510609425617>
> <https://go.airbitz.co/comments/feed/>  <http://linkedin.com/in/paulpuey>
> <https://angel.co/paul-puey>
> *DOWNLOAD THE AIRBITZ WALLET:*
>   <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.airbitz>
> <https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/airbitz/id843536046>
>
>
> From: Andreas Schildbach <andreas@sc...> - 2015-02-05 13:47:04
>
> Thanks Paul, for writing up your protocol!
>
> First thoughts:
>
> For a BIP standard, I think we should skip "bitcoin:" URIs entirely and
> publish BIP70 payment requests instead. URIs mainly stick around because
> of QR codes limited capacity. BIP70 would partly address the "copycat"
> problem by signing payment requests.
>
> In your Motivation section, I miss some words about NFC. NFC already
> addresses all of the usability issues mentioned and is supported by
> mobile wallets since 2011. That doesn't mean your method doesn't make
> sense in some situations, but I think it should be explained why to
> prefer broadcasting payment requests over picking them up via near field
> radio.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is
> your
> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
> leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

--f46d041826be1cc4cb050e5d2623
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">BIP70 requests can be sent over=
 bluetooth as well, as can transactions. Bitcoin Wallet can already send mo=
ney even when offline by doing this. It&#39;s transparent to the user. I me=
an original Bluetooth in this context - BLE has incredibly tight data const=
raints and isn&#39;t really meant for data transfer.</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Yes Android Beam has a prett=
y stupid UI. You can actually tap the devices, take them away and then pres=
s, but that&#39;s not obvious at all. There have been new APIs added in rec=
ent releases that give more control over this, so it&#39;s possible we can =
revisit things and make the UI better these days.</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">The donation to live performer =
example is good - there&#39;s no issue of accidentally paying for someone e=
lse in this context as there&#39;s only one recipient, but many senders.</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">The issu=
e of confused payments remains in other situations though.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">For the coffee shop u=
se case, it&#39;d be nicer (I think) if we aim for a Square-style UI where =
the device broadcasts a (link to) a photo of the user combined with a bluet=
ooth MAC. Then the merchant tablet can show faces of people in the shop, an=
d can push a payment request to the users device. That device can then buzz=
 the user, show a confirmation screen, put something on their smart watch e=
tc or just auto-authorise the payment because the BIP70 signature is from a=
 trusted merchant. User never even needs to touch their phone at all.</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 9:06 PM, Paul Puey <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@airbitz.co" target=3D"_blank">paul@airbitz.co<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Th=
e BIP70 protocol would preclude individuals from utilizing the P2P transfer=
 spec. It would also require that a Sender have internet connectivity to ge=
t the payment protocol info. BLE could enable payment w/o internet by first=
 transferring the URI to from Recipient to Sender. Then in the future, we c=
ould sign a Tx and send it over BLE back to the recipient (who would still =
need internet to verify the Tx). This is an important use case for areas wi=
th poor 3G/4G connectivity as I&#39;ve experience myself.<div><br></div><di=
v>Also, due to Android issues, NFC is incredibly clunky. The URI Sender is =
required to tap the screen *while* the two phones are in contact. We suppor=
t NFC the same way Bitcoin Wallet does, but unless the payment recipient ha=
s a custom Android device (which a merchant might) then the usage model is =
worse than scanning a QR code. BLE also allows people to pay at a distance =
such as for a donation to a live performer. We&#39;ll look at adding this t=
o the Motivation section.</div><div><div><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D""=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><table border=3D"0" style=3D"font-size:medium;font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><tbody><tr valign=3D"top"><td style=3D"wid=
th:auto;vertical-align:top;white-space:nowrap"><img src=3D"https://s3.amazo=
naws.com/webapp.wisestamp.com/v7Zg7GfIQ9mF5xlHZrZA_airbitzlogo.png" alt=3D"=
logo" style=3D"border:none;border-radius:4px">=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-siz=
e:small">=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></span></td><td><span style=3D"font-size:small"><f=
ont color=3D"#3d85c6"><b>Paul Puey</b></font><font color=3D"#808080">=C2=A0=
</font><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">CEO / Co-Founder</span><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">, Airbitz Inc</span></span><br><div style=
=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:small"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(128,128,128)"><a style=3D"color:rgb(128,128,128);outlin=
e:none;text-decoration:none">+1-6</a>19-850-8624=C2=A0</span></span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:small"><span style=3D"color:rgb(69,102,142)">|=C2=A0</spa=
n><a href=3D"http://airbitz.co/" style=3D"color:rgb(128,128,128);outline:no=
ne" target=3D"_blank">http://airbitz.co</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
small;color:rgb(128,128,128)">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:small;c=
olor:rgb(128,128,128)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(69,102,142)">|=C2=A0</span>=
San Diego</span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:5px"><a href=3D"http://faceb=
ook.com/airbitz" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);outline:none" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><img src=3D"http://images.wisestamp.com/facebook.png" width=3D"16" styl=
e=3D"border:none"></a>=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://twitter.com/airbitz" style=3D=
"color:rgb(17,85,204);outline:none" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://im=
ages.wisestamp.com/twitter.png" width=3D"16" alt=3D"" style=3D"border:none"=
></a>=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://plus.google.com/118173667510609425617" style=
=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);outline:none" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http:/=
/images.wisestamp.com/googleplus.png" width=3D"16" style=3D"border:none"></=
a>=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://go.airbitz.co/comments/feed/" style=3D"color:rgb=
(17,85,204);outline:none" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://images.wises=
tamp.com/blogRSS.png" width=3D"16" style=3D"border:none"></a>=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/paulpuey" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);outline:=
none" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://images.wisestamp.com/linkedin.pn=
g" width=3D"16" style=3D"border:none" alt=3D""></a>=C2=A0<a href=3D"https:/=
/angel.co/paul-puey" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);outline:none" target=3D"=
_blank"><img src=3D"http://images.wisestamp.com/angelList.png" width=3D"16"=
 style=3D"border:none" alt=3D""></a></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div st=
yle=3D"font-size:14px;margin-bottom:4px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-se=
rif;font-weight:bold"><b style=3D"font-size:x-small;font-family:arial,sans-=
serif">DOWNLOAD THE AIRBITZ WALLET:</b><br></div><span style=3D"font-size:m=
edium;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://play.googl=
e.com/store/apps/details?id=3Dcom.airbitz" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);ou=
tline:none;text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://image=
s.wisestamp.com.s3.amazonaws.com/apps/mobile_android.png" style=3D"border:n=
one">=C2=A0</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial,sans-serif"></span><span style=3D"font-size:medium;font-family:Helve=
tica,Arial,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/airbitz/i=
d843536046" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);outline:none;text-decoration:none=
" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://images.wisestamp.com.s3.amazonaws.co=
m/apps/mobile_iphone.png" style=3D"border:none"></a></span><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><br></div></span><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><table style=3D"margin:0px 0px 20px 10=
px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-size:13px;vertical-align:baselin=
e;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;width:765px;color:rgb(85,85,8=
5);font-family:sans-serif;line-height:18px;background-image:initial;backgro=
und-repeat:initial"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outli=
ne:0px;vertical-align:baseline;background:transparent"><tr style=3D"margin:=
0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;vertical-align:baseline;background:t=
ransparent"><td style=3D"padding:5px 10px;border-width:0px 0px 1px;border-b=
ottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:rgb(229,229,229);outline:0px;vertical=
-align:middle;white-space:nowrap;background:rgb(221,221,221)"><div style=3D=
"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;vertical-align:baseline;back=
ground:transparent"><small style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outli=
ne:0px;font-size:11.0500001907349px;vertical-align:baseline;background:tran=
sparent">From: Andreas Schildbach &lt;andreas@sc...&gt; - 2015-02-05 13:47:=
04</small><div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;verti=
cal-align:baseline;background:transparent"><small style=3D"margin:0px;paddi=
ng:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-size:11.0500001907349px;vertical-align:b=
aseline;background:transparent"></small></div></div></td></tr><tr style=3D"=
margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;vertical-align:baseline;backg=
round:transparent"><td style=3D"padding:5px 10px;border-width:0px 0px 1px;b=
order-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:rgb(229,229,229);outline:0px;v=
ertical-align:middle;background:transparent"><pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;m=
argin-bottom:0px;padding:15px;border-width:0px 0px 0px 1px;border-left-styl=
e:solid;border-left-color:rgb(229,229,229);outline:0px;vertical-align:basel=
ine;font-family:monospace,sans-serif;white-space:pre-wrap;word-wrap:break-w=
ord;overflow:auto;background:transparent">Thanks Paul, for writing up your =
protocol!

First thoughts:

For a BIP standard, I think we should skip &quot;bitcoin:&quot; URIs entire=
ly and
publish BIP70 payment requests instead. URIs mainly stick around because
of QR codes limited capacity. BIP70 would partly address the &quot;copycat&=
quot;
problem by signing payment requests.

In your Motivation section, I miss some words about NFC. NFC already
addresses all of the usability issues mentioned and is supported by
mobile wallets since 2011. That doesn&#39;t mean your method doesn&#39;t ma=
ke
sense in some situations, but I think it should be explained why to
prefer broadcasting payment requests over picking them up via near field
radio.
</pre><div><br></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></div>
<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,<br>
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is you=
r<br>
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought<br>
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a<=
br>
look and join the conversation now. <a href=3D"http://goparallel.sourceforg=
e.net/" target=3D"_blank">http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/</a><br>_______=
________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--f46d041826be1cc4cb050e5d2623--