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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>,
Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP 70 refund field
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Yes, you begin to see that the payment protocol, as is has a too narrow =
scope of a web cart - customer, and does not even fit that.
It is not about payment requests but about business relationships. We =
need a protocol that deals with that concept instead of individual =
requests,
so we really get out of the hell of addresses. Business relationships =
are terminated by the parties at their own and not bey algorithms and =
timeouts.
Regards,
Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com
On 28.03.2014, at 12:38, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Andreas Schildbach =
<andreas@schildbach.de> wrote:
> I see the problem.
>=20
> However, I don't see how PaymentDetails can be an answer. None of the
> fields (other than outputs and network) can be known in advance (at =
the
> time of the initial payment).
>=20
> You're probably aiming for an expires field? How would you refund a
> payment after expiry? Note its not your choice wether to refund a
> payment -- it can be ordered by a court years after the payment =
happened.
>=20
> Communication between the merchant and buyer would be needed in this =
case.
>=20
> I'd say that would be not unreasonable if something is to be refunded =
after a year or more. After all, people may have moved, bank accounts =
changed, even outside the bitcoin world.
>=20
> It should probably not be accepted to set a very low expiration time =
for the refund address, like <3 months, as it's as bad as not providing =
a refund address at all and brings back all the pre-BIP70 confusion.
>=20
> Wladimir
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
--Apple-Mail=_E679D78B-D160-4F41-A014-48F69BB53CED
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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charset=us-ascii
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">Yes, you begin to see that the payment =
protocol, as is has a too narrow scope of a web cart - customer, and =
does not even fit that.</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">It is not about payment requests but about =
business relationships. We need a protocol that deals with that concept =
instead of individual requests,</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true">so=
we really get out of the hell of addresses. Business relationships are =
terminated by the parties at their own and not bey algorithms and =
timeouts.</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
display: inline !important; float: none; ">Regards,</span><br =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; =
">Tamas Blummer</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; =
"><a href=3D"http://bitsofproof.com">http://bitsofproof.com</a></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On 28.03.2014, at 12:38, Wladimir <<a =
href=3D"mailto:laanwj@gmail.com">laanwj@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Andreas =
Schildbach <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de" =
target=3D"_blank">andreas@schildbach.de</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I see the problem.<br>
<br>
However, I don't see how PaymentDetails can be an answer. None of =
the<br>
fields (other than outputs and network) can be known in advance (at =
the<br>
time of the initial payment).<br>
<br>
You're probably aiming for an expires field? How would you refund a<br>
payment after expiry? Note its not your choice wether to refund a<br>
payment -- it can be ordered by a court years after the payment =
happened.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Communication between the =
merchant and buyer would be needed in this case.<br><br></div><div>I'd =
say that would be not unreasonable if something is to be refunded after =
a year or more. After all, people may have moved, bank accounts changed, =
even outside the bitcoin world.<br>
<br></div><div>It should probably not be accepted to set a very low =
expiration time for the refund address, like <3 months, as it's as =
bad as not providing a refund address at all and brings back all the =
pre-BIP70 confusion.<br>
</div><div></div><div><br></div><div =
class=3D"h5">Wladimir<br></div></div><br></div></div>
=
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ent@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listi=
nfo/bitcoin-development<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=
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