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From: Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 15:24:45 -0600
Message-ID: <CALeFGL3ywc3YiZ-JnaShGPyaKRjDyG4gs7N3SiV4OJudFAwYcg@mail.gmail.com>
To: yurisvb@pm.me, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Formosa --- proposed improvement upon BIP39
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Good day Yuri,

This is a very cool idea. After reviewing the repository it seems that
there lacks a BIP style specification for this, so it is possible that some
of my takeaways may not be correct but I figured I'd comment with some
observations anyway. Feel free to correct me where I've made a mistake.

I think to make an idea like this work it would be necessary for it to
"extend" BIP39 rather than "replace" it. What I mean by this is that BIP39
is heavily entrenched in the ecosystem and so in order for you to sidestep
the need to get everyone in the ecosystem to adopt a new standard, you'd
want this process to be able to output a standard BIP39 seed sequence. This
becomes even more important when you allow these different "themes" that
are mentioned later in the document. The notion of themes practically
precludes the standardization of the technique since customization really
is the antithesis of standardization.

The largest value proposition of these schemes is that it allows
significant wallet interoperability. This is achieved if process for
translating these phrases to the underlying wallet seed is deterministic.
Themes may prove to make this harder to solve. I also do not believe that
themes meaningfully increase the ability to remember the phrase: the fact
that the phrase has a valid semantic at all is a massive step up from an
undifferentiated sequence of words that is the current state of BIP39. The
benefits afforded by the themes here are little by comparison.

Overall, I think exploring this idea further is a good idea. However, there
may be concerns about whether the increased memorability is a good thing.
It would certainly make $5 wrench attacks more viable, not less. I can't
help but ask myself the question whether more Bitcoin is lost because of
seed phrases not being memorized, or because of social engineering
exercises used to scrape these phrases from the brains of users. I have a
hunch that loss is a larger problem than theft, but it is a very real
possibility that a wide deployment of this type of tech could change that.

Stay Inspired,
Keags

On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 6:05=E2=80=AFAM Yuri S VB via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> The following is a password format that improves upon BIP39 by allowing
> meaningful, themed sentences with a regular grammatical structure instead
> of semantically disconnected words, while keeping the same entropy/checks=
um
> and total bits/non-repeating leading digits ratios (of 32/1 and 11/4
> respectively).
>
> https://github.com/Yuri-SVB/formosa
>
> Anecdotal experiments suggest that less than one hour of moderate
> concentration is enough for long term memorization of 128 + 4 bits
> (equivalent to the 12 words standard of BIP39) if a theme of interest is
> employed.
>
> I hereby offer it to your scrutiny as a Bitcoin Improvement Proposal.
> Please don't hesitate to ask whatever issue about the project there might
> be.
>
> Faithfully yours, Yuri S VB.
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Good day Yuri,</div><div><br></div>This is a very coo=
l idea. After reviewing the repository it seems that there lacks a BIP styl=
e specification for this, so it is possible that some of my takeaways may n=
ot be correct but I figured I&#39;d comment with some observations anyway. =
Feel free to correct me where I&#39;ve made a mistake.<div><br></div><div>I=
 think to make an idea like this work it would be necessary for it to &quot=
;extend&quot; BIP39 rather than &quot;replace&quot; it. What I mean by this=
 is that BIP39 is heavily entrenched in the ecosystem and so in order for y=
ou to sidestep the need to get everyone in the ecosystem to adopt a new sta=
ndard, you&#39;d want this process to be able to output a standard BIP39 se=
ed sequence. This becomes even more important when you allow these differen=
t &quot;themes&quot; that are mentioned later in the document. The notion o=
f themes practically precludes the standardization of the technique since c=
ustomization really is the antithesis of standardization.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>The largest value proposition of these schemes is that it allows si=
gnificant wallet interoperability. This is achieved if process for translat=
ing these phrases to the underlying wallet seed is deterministic. Themes ma=
y prove to make this harder to solve. I also do not believe that themes mea=
ningfully increase the ability to remember the phrase: the fact that the ph=
rase has a valid semantic at all is a massive step up from an undifferentia=
ted sequence of words that is the current state of BIP39. The benefits affo=
rded by the themes here are little by comparison.</div><div><br></div><div>=
Overall, I think exploring this idea further is a good idea. However, there=
 may be concerns about whether the increased memorability is a good thing. =
It would certainly make $5 wrench attacks more viable, not less. I can&#39;=
t help but ask myself the question whether more Bitcoin is lost because of =
seed phrases not being memorized, or because of social engineering exercise=
s used to scrape these phrases from the brains of users. I have a hunch tha=
t loss is a larger problem than theft, but it is a very real possibility th=
at a wide deployment of this type of tech could change that.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Stay Inspired,</div><div>Keags</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 6:05=
=E2=80=AFAM Yuri S VB via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"=
font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"line-height:1.5=
">Dear colleagues,</span><div style=3D"line-height:1.5"><br></div><div styl=
e=3D"line-height:1.5"><div><div><span>The following is a password format th=
at improves upon BIP39 by allowing meaningful, themed sentences with a regu=
lar grammatical structure instead of semantically disconnected words, while=
 keeping the same entropy/checksum and total bits/non-repeating leading dig=
its ratios (of 32/1 and 11/4 respectively).<br><br><span><a href=3D"https:/=
/github.com/Yuri-SVB/formosa" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" style=3D=
"text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/Yuri-SVB/f=
ormosa</a></span><br><br>Anecdotal experiments suggest that less than one h=
our of moderate concentration is enough for long term memorization of 128 +=
 4 bits (equivalent to the 12 words standard of BIP39) if a theme of intere=
st is employed.<br><br>I hereby offer it to your scrutiny as a Bitcoin Impr=
ovement Proposal. Please don&#39;t hesitate to ask whatever issue about the=
 project there might be.<br><br>Faithfully yours, Yuri S VB.</span></div></=
div></div><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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