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From: Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 17:28:11 -0700
Message-ID: <CALeFGL2ngsRd3N+8L7u9ZLNQB084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] HODL Tax Proposal
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9_Edil_Guimar=C3=A3es_de_Medeiros?= <jose.edil@gmail.com>
Cc: Richard Greaser <thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Hypothetically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy wherein
they consider the age of the utxo being spent and factor that into the
feerate they consider when accepting the transaction into their block
template. However this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can choose
to not take this into consideration when making the choice to mine the
transaction or not. If enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could end
up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This also means that you can do this
without a consensus fork if there was appetite for it.

However, I suspect there will be extreme resistance to this proposal and it
is unlikely that miners would intentionally leave otherwise-good fees on
the table simply because they want to play prisoners dilemma games where
they lose fees to the competition.

Keags

On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de Med=
eiros <
jose.edil@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoin
> thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted t=
o
> stress the concept.
>
> Since the value "tokens" in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from
> transactions that have not been spent in another transaction, and since t=
he
> sole purpose of the utxos are to atomically serve as input to a subsequen=
t
> transaction, how do you proposed to "tax" them?
>
> I mean, let's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simple
> p2pkh transaction with the address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean to
> authorize it as an input to a new transaction. In principle, that can onl=
y
> be done by me producing a valid signature using a private key.
>
> Let's say I'm one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax t=
o
> be implemented?
>
> All the best.
> --
> E...
>
> On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Greaser <thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFHi everyone,
>
> It has become apparent to me that there is an issue where users of the
> network holding their coins, are not adding value to the network.
>
> As miners continue to get squeezed post halving, they would benefit
> tremendously from fees being taken from individuals refusing to move thei=
r
> coins, providing increased security to the network.
>
> I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attached below.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7549=
b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-754=
9b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
> .
> <hodltax.md>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F008=
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823A94C3D%40gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hypothetically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/rela=
y policy wherein they consider the age of the utxo being spent and factor t=
hat into the feerate they consider when accepting the transaction into thei=
r block template. However this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can =
choose to not take this into consideration when making the choice to mine t=
he transaction or not. If enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could e=
nd up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This also means that you can do this w=
ithout a consensus fork if there was appetite for it.<div><br></div><div>Ho=
wever, I suspect there will be extreme resistance to this proposal and it i=
s unlikely that miners would intentionally leave otherwise-good fees on the=
 table simply because they want to play prisoners dilemma games where they =
lose fees to the competition.</div><div><br></div><div>Keags</div></div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, A=
ug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de Medeiros &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jose.edil@gmail.com">jose.edil@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto=
">Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoin =
thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted to =
stress the concept.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Since the value &quot;tokens&q=
uot; in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from transactions that have not been=
 spent in another transaction, and since the sole purpose of the utxos are =
to atomically serve as input to a subsequent transaction, how do you propos=
ed to &quot;tax&quot; them?</div><div><br></div><div>I mean, let&#39;s say =
someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simple p2pkh transaction w=
ith the address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean to authorize it as an i=
nput to a new transaction. In principle, that can only be done by me produc=
ing a valid signature using a private key.</div><div><br></div><div>Let&#39=
;s say I&#39;m one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax to=
 be implemented?</div><div><br></div><div>All the best.=C2=A0<br id=3D"m_-8=
171199284076287391lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">--<div>=
E...</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 1 Aug 202=
4, at 18:13, Richard Greaser &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thebitcoinbugle@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></bloc=
kquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BFHi everyon=
e,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>It has become apparent to me that there is an i=
ssue where users of the network holding their coins, are not adding value t=
o the network. <br><br></div><div>As miners continue to get squeezed post h=
alving, they would benefit tremendously from fees being taken from individu=
als refusing to move their coins, providing increased security to the netwo=
rk.=C2=A0<br><br>I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attache=
d below.=C2=A0</div>

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