1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
|
Return-Path: <alp.bitcoin@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
[172.17.192.35])
by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D31E89C
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 8 Feb 2017 15:57:24 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-lf0-f45.google.com (mail-lf0-f45.google.com
[209.85.215.45])
by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 754F11B7
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 8 Feb 2017 15:57:23 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-lf0-f45.google.com with SMTP id v186so84604131lfa.1
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 08 Feb 2017 07:57:23 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to
:cc; bh=xoep+59Sic8xWTgPpJ4CiE1SpM2Qui3hHHalTOcPtHk=;
b=XnSRJpnTmtj4novbv4EwkIvdeXRw9ZDUJ/LM9TP6Ap/RgXs6uanMWncxnjqby4Zg8S
K9sbbm4axXVJKog8ruEgcE4wKZU+ZjM5CA/Qc98lX8QxiDmwczuYcPy5mPhe4xF+maOD
jxzUZD6LyhlIFF7ggrqo6tcPvvl8h59glWIXBbMxC2qwWjuz8vGH18Nsm2RsJrLv/d85
Dp4PNz3vi5nFlzizxV7vGbexnKBtY1F1l/b/uVZWL7Gd9tTMItmTxYtvx+npxdln743x
jM4hGA5vdL6LY9zMqJ629RPIBw4eM5dNFA9zfqXhHYN1DmHsPylB3ZB6goFItShESzWd
II1g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date
:message-id:subject:to:cc;
bh=xoep+59Sic8xWTgPpJ4CiE1SpM2Qui3hHHalTOcPtHk=;
b=afesptwKgtgJZud9QZm0O0T7KcrONHJOoimX62vLGI2rNhuaYhwDL4hEUf7s02evvJ
rvSlxxXo6yUJ+jLqQrW3Jio+wt7Cj+H8mRzsLcYqnyJ1Puwbco+NdyvkA9U06cKTiq2H
inWn9N2ffEXC0Sc1mupClatAbNxocviOrIEHlnL8dEyKIusAjPnn0C+w2QtO1QFqgads
J1i1OrIb0Kr4AzYTFKXtvllt9osuX2TNXFDg18KqvdRiZt17K05sR82QuXzhA2AlNGc+
UE0uotChQ7AvF0zKiNj871tk7ro8xeaeNEcS7lbuANDIKmWSzhyXAYGz12Slvw2zfuTD
lMig==
X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39l6nFz/kD7Bp4w7C16X6Go2ksH4RrOsgIEd2v47g6/FKB3+PEUmu76yb7JBKtrdeFJovcdsPSYXpM7c8w==
X-Received: by 10.46.71.132 with SMTP id u126mr8207129lja.43.1486569441862;
Wed, 08 Feb 2017 07:57:21 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.25.21.92 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 07:57:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.25.21.92 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 07:57:21 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CAAy62_LcpgXss9hMTG_kwoGbuTOmfpmEc-awi5gNybq0fYErfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ea63ed5a-4280-c063-4984-5bc8a4b2aafa@gmail.com>
<201702052302.29599.luke@dashjr.org>
<CAGCNRJrNRb4Eo5T8+KsKnazOCm15g89RFLtRW07k1KjN6TpTDw@mail.gmail.com>
<201702061953.40774.luke@dashjr.org>
<CAGCNRJo3zM2kYePPw-=JpMQWtn_M1Eg=SpShC_z-d-_Nv6KqcQ@mail.gmail.com>
<CAMBsKS9OS2tA4bG-JG96XNZTiPyuq322Qu=fyJcZ1BtVj3TtxQ@mail.gmail.com>
<CAAy62_LcpgXss9hMTG_kwoGbuTOmfpmEc-awi5gNybq0fYErfQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: alp alp <alp.bitcoin@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 09:57:21 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMBsKS-Zek5qHB=Yvf0=8EKZkZL8qxAK3n=Cn7Kq6GCwt774_w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Andrew Johnson <andrew.johnson83@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113db2fa842b31054806eb5a
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
smtp1.linux-foundation.org
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 10:23:41 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A Modified Version of Luke-jr's Block Size BIP
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 15:57:24 -0000
--001a113db2fa842b31054806eb5a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
10% is not a tiny minority.
On Feb 8, 2017 9:51 AM, "Andrew Johnson" <andrew.johnson83@gmail.com> wrote:
> You're never going to reach 100% agreement, and stifling the network
> literally forever to please a tiny minority is daft.
>
> On Feb 8, 2017 8:52 AM, "alp alp via bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.
> linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> 10% say literally never. That seems like a significant disenfranchisement
> and lack of consensus.
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:25 PM, t. khan via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, February 06, 2017 6:19:43 PM you wrote:
>>> > >My BIP draft didn't make progress because the community opposes any
>>> block
>>> > >size increase hardfork ever.
>>> >
>>> > Luke, how do you know the community opposes that? Specifically, how
>>> did you
>>> > come to this conclusion?
>>>
>>> http://www.strawpoll.me/12228388/r
>>
>>
>> That poll shows 63% of votes want a larger than 1 MB block by this
>> summer. How do you go from that to "the community opposes any block
>> increase ever"? It shows the exact opposite of that.
>>
>>
>>> > >Your version doesn't address the current block size
>>> > >issues (ie, the blocks being too large).
>>> >
>>> > Why do you think blocks are "too large"? Please cite some evidence.
>>> I've
>>> > asked this before and you ignored it, but an answer would be helpful
>>> to the
>>> > discussion.
>>>
>>> Full node count is far below the safe minimum of 85% of economic
>>> activity.
>>>
>>
>> Is this causing a problem now? If so, what?
>>
>>
>>> Typically reasons given for people not using full nodes themselves come
>>> down
>>> to the high resource requirements caused by the block size.
>>
>>
>> The reason people stop running nodes is because there's no incentive to
>> counteract the resource costs. Attempting to solve this by making blocks
>> *smaller* is like curing a disease by killing the patient. (Incentivizing
>> full node operation would fix that problem.)
>>
>> - t.k.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
>
--001a113db2fa842b31054806eb5a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"auto">10% is not a tiny minority.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 8, 2017 9:51 AM, "Andrew John=
son" <<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.johnson83@gmail.com">andrew.johnson8=
3@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>You're never going to reach 100% agreemen=
t, and stifling the network literally forever to please a tiny minority is =
daft.<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 8=
, 2017 8:52 AM, "alp alp via bitcoin-dev" <<a href=3D"mailto:b=
itcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<=
wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote =
class=3D"m_-1566305387424443597quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">10% say literally never=
.=C2=A0 That seems like a significant disenfranchisement and lack of consen=
sus.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div cl=
ass=3D"m_-1566305387424443597elided-text">On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:25 PM, t=
. khan via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@=
lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<=
wbr>tion.org</a>></span> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div class=3D"m_-1566305387424443597elided-text"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>On M=
on, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Luke Dashjr <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:luke@dashjr.org" target=3D"_blank">luke@dashjr.org</a>></span> wrot=
e:<br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><span><span class=3D"m_-1566305387424443597m_-8603678674590328=
520m_5903971323563278916gmail-">On Monday, February 06, 2017 6:19:43 PM you=
wrote:<br>
> >My BIP draft didn't make progress because the community oppose=
s any block<br>
> >size increase hardfork ever.<br>
><br>
</span></span><span><span class=3D"m_-1566305387424443597m_-860367867459032=
8520m_5903971323563278916gmail-">> Luke, how do you know the community o=
pposes that? Specifically, how did you<br>
> come to this conclusion?<br>
<br>
</span></span><a href=3D"http://www.strawpoll.me/12228388/r" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.strawpoll.me/122283<wbr>88/r</a></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div>That poll shows 63% of votes want a larger than 1 MB blo=
ck by this summer. How do you go from that to "the community opposes a=
ny block increase ever"? It shows the exact opposite of that.<div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><span><span class=3D"m_-1566305387424443597m_-860=
3678674590328520m_5903971323563278916gmail-">
> >Your version doesn't address the current block size<br>
> >issues (ie, the blocks being too large).<br>
><br>
> Why do you think blocks are "too large"? Please cite some ev=
idence. I've<br>
> asked this before and you ignored it, but an answer would be helpful t=
o the<br>
> discussion.<br>
<br>
</span></span>Full node count is far below the safe minimum of 85% of econo=
mic activity.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is this causing a problem=
now? If so, what?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:s=
olid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Typically reasons given for people not using full nodes themselves come dow=
n<br>
to the high resource requirements caused by the block size.</blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>The reason people stop running nodes is because there'=
s no incentive to counteract the resource costs. Attempting to solve this b=
y making blocks *smaller* is like curing a disease by killing the patient. =
(Incentivizing full node operation would fix that problem.)<br></div><div><=
br></div><div>- t.k.</div></div><br></div></div></div>
<br></div><div class=3D"m_-1566305387424443597quoted-text">________________=
______________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
--001a113db2fa842b31054806eb5a--
|
